Ireland RWC 11 Thread

[thomond2006]

Humphries is out till september, he won't get a call up.

 

[staph.glorious]

Humphries is out till september, he won't get a call up.

Cheers, Thomond! Must've slipped the mind.

Keatley it is. He has a pair of Irish caps 'n' all!

 

[munstermuffin]

Think Keatley is what Deccie would go for regardless because Humphries is a great player on his day but also can be awful and Deccie prefers the more safer Keatley.

 

[big ginger 8]

Don't know if anyone saw it but there's an article on The Irish Times with Lomu saying Ireland are N.Z.'s biggest threat.

 

[IRFU]

Don't know if anyone saw it but there's an article on The Irish Times with Lomu saying Ireland are N.Z.'s biggest threat.

This is it for anyone who didn't see.

Former All Black Jonah Lomu has singled Ireland out as the side that could break the southern hemisphere's dominance at the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand this autumn .

The giant winger, who has scored more World Cup tries (15) than any other player, says Ireland have the experience and the desire to put in a big performance when the tournament rolls around in September.

"If there's a team that you have to be wary about, and not many people are talking about them, it's Ireland," Lomu said while promoting the tournament in the Cook Islands. "Purely because I've watched a lot of their teams. I've watched Leinster play in the Heineken Cup and they were very impressive, especially up front.

Lomu added the likes of Brian O'Driscoll, Ronan O'Gara and Paul O'Connell were likely to give everything they've got in what will be their last World Cup.

"A lot of those players are coming to the end of their career and they'll put everything on the line," he said.

The 36-year-old said Ireland's low profile could work to their advantage with the spotlight on "the usual suspects" such as South Africa, New Zealand and more recently Australia, after the Queensland Reds won the Super 15 ***le.

"They're going to slide in under the radar because I think everybody's talking about how the (Queensland) Reds have beaten the Crusaders for Australia and France coming without (Sebastien) Chabal," he said. "They're just going to do their job and do what they need to do."

Lomu, who was born in New Zealand but spend much of his childhood in Tonga, said he believed the All Blacks could win on home soil.

"I'm a through and through All Blacks supporter and they'll be my team but I know there's so many teams to watch out for," he said.

At fourth in the world, Ireland are the highest ranked northern hemisphere team. They are grouped with Australia, Italy, Russia and the USA in Pool C.

http://m.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2011/0715/1224300787480.html?via=sport

 

[staph.glorious]

Lomu says to be "wary" of Ireland, not that they're New Zealand's biggest threat.

Think Keatley is what Deccie would go for regardless because Humphries is a great player on his day but also can be awful and Deccie prefers the more safer Keatley.

That would be counter-intuitive. Humphries has started five of the last six Wolfhounds matches, with only Paddy Wallace benching him. Keatley has featured on three benches, while Niall O'Connor was the replacement flyhalf in the last two fixtures. Keatley also had a relatively poor season this year, starting out as second-choice to Nikora even. That he was playing centre a great deal might have contributed to his form.

 

[munstermuffin]

I not saying Keatley the better player I just basing it on in big matches Deccie prefers the safer option. If I was picking I would pick young Humphs as he is extremely exciting. I don't read into Wolfhounds games much

 

[staph.glorious]

I not saying Keatley the better player I just basing it on in big matches Deccie prefers the safer option. If I was picking I would pick young Humphs as he is extremely exciting. I don't read into Wolfhounds games much

Kidney does.

Out of curiosity, what options has Kidney favoured that are deemed 'safer'?

 

[Patrick Miller]

As long as Paddy Wallace is left at home i'm happy but he will no doubt get picked to go.

 

[staph.glorious]

As long as Paddy Wallace is left at home i'm happy but he will no doubt get picked to go.

Aye, it's a crime he's keeping Seánie B Williams out of the squad (!)

 

[munstermuffin]

Kidney does.

Out of curiosity, what options has Kidney favoured that are deemed 'safer'?

If TOL never got injured then he'd be starting 9 still regardless of form as Kidney see's his size and strength as safer option
Cullen won't ever get starting spot as it is safer to keep Munster pairing regardless of form

Little calls like that and Kidney has input in to Wolfhounds games but it's usually just to play guys like Paddy Wallace at 10 in case it ever happened for Senior team.
Fionn Carr is a Wolfhounds starter yet in National team Kidney see's 7/8 players ahead of him for the wing. This team is a mixture of developing some and allowing others get game time in positions they're not playing in regularly.

 

[staph.glorious]

If TOL never got injured then he'd be starting 9 still regardless of form as Kidney see's his size and strength as safer option
Cullen won't ever get starting spot as it is safer to keep Munster pairing regardless of form

Little calls like that and Kidney has input in to Wolfhounds games but it's usually just to play guys like Paddy Wallace at 10 in case it ever happened for Senior team.
Fionn Carr is a Wolfhounds starter yet in National team Kidney see's 7/8 players ahead of him for the wing. This team is a mixture of developing some and allowing others get game time in positions they're not playing in regularly.

TOL's selection is one that favours defense and an abrasive quality. An average passer and kicker for scrumhalf does not equate to a 'safer' option at halfback.

Both O'Callaghan and O'Connell complement each other. When Butch ain't around, the Sundance Kid ain't hittin' anything, moving or otherwise. And it works both ways. There's nothing wrong of DOC's form that calls out for Cullen to succeed him. Kidney isn't picking a 'safer' option in spite of another, but simply the best available option. Cullen is a proven international, after all. There is no desperate need to blood him.

Of the last six Wolfhounds matches, Fionn Carr has only played one entire match, that being the loss against the Saxons in January 2010; he was an unused replacement in 2011's return fixture.

I'm confident to state that Kidney has a significant hand in the management of the Wolfhounds. He'd be foolish and a poor national coach if he did not. It has contributed in some way (not wholly) to the promotion of Mike Ross to starting tighthead. It has helped boost the profile of Fergus McFadden, a now fringe-squad player who was otherwise competing with Ireland's leading inside centre in the provincial set-up. It has nurtured plenty of match squad to extended squad players post-injury. It is not taken lightly.

So, only on the clairvoyant properties of knock-knees or tea-leaves can you suggest that the less favoured inexperienced flyhalf (Ian Keatley) is more likely to get an emergency call-up than the more favoured inexperienced flyhalf (Ian Humphreys).

 

[munstermuffin]

True Kidney is heavily involved. But my point is based on 100% fact here. He has his favourites. In Munster D.Ryan was supposed to start in 2nd row for a prolonged period because of DOC's discipline but Kidney blocked that. He wanted TOL in for ML final and Munster fought case and won. He had big hand in Buckley getting as many chances as he did. I not arguing with the man as he is getting results but he picks his favourites and on the TOL issue you say it not safer option picking TOL to defend and kick ??????If we have Sexton at 10 we need a superb passer or Reddan who partners him at Leinster and utilise the guys strengths. Sexton has a dangerous back unit outside him and is creative so I don't think a defensive 9 is answer. As for Mike Ross fact is he'd never have got chance if Hayes was fit in my opinion.

 

[staph.glorious]

We were discussing 'safe' options and the purpose or function of the Wolfhounds. Now you've moved onto Kidney's preferences for some reason. I don't know why.

Fine - I never disputed it, but it is true Kidney has a big hand too in the provinces. Fitzgerald played fullback, and Paddy Wallace had a handful of starts at flyhalf. Buckley was considered a local project, likely due to his size and apparent dynamism; his weaknesses apparent to all. This policy, prior to the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand, has been well-documented in the press. I guess it's worth a little mention that Keatley's demotion to the Connacht berth and/or transfer to centre suggests he is not presently in Kidney's plans.

For O'Leary, his selection while the original Experimental Law Variations were being tested was astute. He was playing well, and his defensive skills and modest kicking game outweighed his sometime-sluggish pass. That environment favoured territory over possession, and one need only draw a comparison between the Grand Slam winning Irish side and the South African team that ran away with the Tri Nations; a kicking scrumhalf (though this says little to nothing of the exceptional Fourie du Preez), a flyhalf who preferred the boot, and a fullback who could play territory to fine effect. Thankfully, that was then.

Presently, possession is king. The passing, tempo-generating halfback is preferred, and is indeed the 'safer' option for such a reason. Slow ruck-ball affords the opposition time to counter-ruck or align a more 'offensive' defence, if you will. Furthermore, few scrumhalves the world over possess the requisite kicking skills to gain advantage at the base of the ruck, and certainly O'Leary is not one of them. Had Ireland a finer class of scrumhalf, I suspect O'Leary's defensive qualities would prove less significant in his contest for a squad place. As it stands, he remains an option worth considering. I do maintain that a tempo-generating halfback who conspires to provide 'go-forward ball' is both 'safer' and more beneficial, and this model predominates across successful sides in the current game. Going by your recent post, I can see you favour this option.

I suppose I should now clarify that, after some initial hemming and hawing, I believe Kidney's short-term resolution in keeping with O'Leary as first-choice was a poor tactic. His injury brought about the change at halfback, and subsequently I feel a lesson had been learned by management. Look to the 43-man preliminary squad, and you will see a staggering five scrumhalves included. To me, this screams reassessment, reconsideration.

Mike Ross, if I recall correctly, spoke in an interview to The Irish Times* of the targets and expectations set by Kidney for him to achieve; by common consensus, this centred largely on his inability in 'getting around the field'. According to the Irish camp, the criteria were not met until selection for the 2011 Six Nations. No mention of the relative strengths of his front-row competition.

Alleging Kidney of favouritism is at best the product of hearsay, more likely born of one's 'waters'. Selection policy can be described as tactical with moderate scrutiny, even if those tactics are suspected or proven later to be ill-advised. I have refuted to a handsome degree your specific examples of apparent favouritism.** If you have a well-founded counter-claim, I'm keen to read it. I didn't post in this thread to proffer my opinions, but highlight the inaccuracies (indecencies) of certain 'facts'.


* If I can locate the article, I'll update this post with the suitable reference(s).
** Could you please cite the relevant article or what-have-you of Ryan's 'block for a second-row berth at Munster?

 

[staph.glorious]

I guess it's worth a little mention that Keatley's demotion to the Connacht berth and/or transfer to centre suggests he is not presently in Kidney's plans.

This should read 'bench'. I reckon the edit button is staring me in the face, but I can't find it.

Apologies to mods and admin for clogging this thread.

 

[karlob23]

15 kearney 12 D'arcy 7 Wallace 4 Ferris 2 Flannery (if fit) and mcfadden should be 22 as hes the perfect utility back

 

[munstermuffin]

We were discussing 'safe' options and the purpose or function of the Wolfhounds. Now you've moved onto Kidney's preferences for some reason. I don't know why.

Fine - I never disputed it, but it is true Kidney has a big hand too in the provinces. Fitzgerald played fullback, and Paddy Wallace had a handful of starts at flyhalf. Buckley was considered a local project, likely due to his size and apparent dynamism; his weaknesses apparent to all. This policy, prior to the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand, has been well-documented in the press. I guess it's worth a little mention that Keatley's demotion to the Connacht berth and/or transfer to centre suggests he is not presently in Kidney's plans.

For O'Leary, his selection while the original Experimental Law Variations were being tested was astute. He was playing well, and his defensive skills and modest kicking game outweighed his sometime-sluggish pass. That environment favoured territory over possession, and one need only draw a comparison between the Grand Slam winning Irish side and the South African team that ran away with the Tri Nations; a kicking scrumhalf (though this says little to nothing of the exceptional Fourie du Preez), a flyhalf who preferred the boot, and a fullback who could play territory to fine effect. Thankfully, that was then.

Presently, possession is king. The passing, tempo-generating halfback is preferred, and is indeed the 'safer' option for such a reason. Slow ruck-ball affords the opposition time to counter-ruck or align a more 'offensive' defence, if you will. Furthermore, few scrumhalves the world over possess the requisite kicking skills to gain advantage at the base of the ruck, and certainly O'Leary is not one of them. Had Ireland a finer class of scrumhalf, I suspect O'Leary's defensive qualities would prove less significant in his contest for a squad place. As it stands, he remains an option worth considering. I do maintain that a tempo-generating halfback who conspires to provide 'go-forward ball' is both 'safer' and more beneficial, and this model predominates across successful sides in the current game. Going by your recent post, I can see you favour this option.

I suppose I should now clarify that, after some initial hemming and hawing, I believe Kidney's short-term resolution in keeping with O'Leary as first-choice was a poor tactic. His injury brought about the change at halfback, and subsequently I feel a lesson had been learned by management. Look to the 43-man preliminary squad, and you will see a staggering five scrumhalves included. To me, this screams reassessment, reconsideration.

Mike Ross, if I recall correctly, spoke in an interview to The Irish Times* of the targets and expectations set by Kidney for him to achieve; by common consensus, this centred largely on his inability in 'getting around the field'. According to the Irish camp, the criteria were not met until selection for the 2011 Six Nations. No mention of the relative strengths of his front-row competition.

Alleging Kidney of favouritism is at best the product of hearsay, more likely born of one's 'waters'. Selection policy can be described as tactical with moderate scrutiny, even if those tactics are suspected or proven later to be ill-advised. I have refuted to a handsome degree your specific examples of apparent favouritism.** If you have a well-founded counter-claim, I'm keen to read it. I didn't post in this thread to proffer my opinions, but highlight the inaccuracies (indecencies) of certain 'facts'.


* If I can locate the article, I'll update this post with the suitable reference(s).
** Could you please cite the relevant article or what-have-you of Ryan's 'block for a second-row berth at Munster?[/QUOTE]

Well work with Munster Rugby and it was very well spread around here that management wanted to punish DOC and Denis Leamy for poor discipline,
Add in Ryan has been in great form. But IRFU made the call that Ryan was to play majority of gametime at 6 with World Cup in view and possibilty of him being in squad as option at 6 and 2nd row.

'Safe' in my book is playing safely - Munster used to play safe alot but now try to expand. The brand Leinster play or Northampton Saints play is style I think we should play and have players to play. An exciting brand that have a go from almost anywhere. Not a kick to corner type of brand, we use that plan to close out game if needed and use ROG.

 

[staph.glorious]

True for you; Ryan came into his own especially at the end of the season. I reckon he's on the plane to New Zealand, what with Tuohy's injury mid-season curtailing his ambitions of a squad place and McLaughlin yet to settle as an international-standard second-row. Oh, and of course Ryan has that bit more experience with the national squad, amounting to seven Test caps.

I would posit that a 'safe' gameplan is one that is practised and favoured more often that not. For example, if a team has a relatively high Pass/Run:Kick ratio, and they revert to a tactical-kicking game, their inexperience could lend to error and turnover. Thus, to not play 'safely' is to either break from the agreed gameplan(s), or to initially execute a poorly-conceived or inadequately drilled gameplan. The risk in multiple passes should be minimal at this standard of rugby.

'Exciting' is a subjective term belonging to spectators.

'Safe' in my book is playing safely

One for the ages! :lol:

 

[Peat]

I'd have thought the best indication of Mr. Kidney's thinking would be the Ireland pre-season World Cup squad posted; which does not include Ian Keatley, but specifically mentions that iHumph was not included due to injury. Which would suggest that Humphreys is ahead of Keatley.

Having said all this, I'd also like to mention a truly scary prospect for Ireland's fly-half prospects should both ROG and iHumph be unavailable.

Jeremy Staunton.

I'll **** myself laughing should that happen, but it does make a worrying amount of sense...

 

[Conal]

I'd have thought the best indication of Mr. Kidney's thinking would be the Ireland pre-season World Cup squad posted; which does not include Ian Keatley, but specifically mentions that iHumph was not included due to injury. Which would suggest that Humphreys is ahead of Keatley.

Having said all this, I'd also like to mention a truly scary prospect for Ireland's fly-half prospects should both ROG and iHumph be unavailable.

Jeremy Staunton.

I'll **** myself laughing should that happen, but it does make a worrying amount of sense...

id think keatly would appear before staunton
or wallace even sweet lord zombie jesus make sure it never ever happens it niall o'connor
noc just because kidney seemsto have him in the wolfhounds occasionaly.