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International teams tiers

TRF Mr Fish said:
Mine would be very similar.

1 New Zealand
2 Australia, South Africa
3 England, Ireland, Wales
4 France, Argentina
5 Scotland
6 Italy, Samoa, Fiji, Japan
7 Tonga, Georgia, Romania, Canada, USA
8 Namibia, Uruguay
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This looks pretty spot on, I don't quite feel Argentina are quite the level of the top NH teams yet.
 
nzlizard said:
This looks pretty spot on, I don't quite feel Argentina are quite the level of the top NH teams yet.
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I think its pretty fine margins. I do believe a full strength Wales, Ireland or England would more than likely beat Argentina on a given day, though its not a 100% given. Which makes the Ireland vs Argentina match all the worse... We seriously need to start building squad depth for the next WC. Its nice and all to have some quality players but it is a bit sad to see how different and less competent the team is without 4 of their main guys. Though to be fair I dont know any teams outside of NZ that would perform as superbly as before losing their 4 star players. Maybe SA.

For the record, heres how I see international rugby at the moment

1 New Zealand
2 South Africa, Australia
3 England, Ireland, Wales, Argentina
4 Scotland
5 France
6 Italy, Fiji, Samoa, Japan
7 Georgia, Romania, Canada, Tonga
 
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jomjom said:
I think its pretty fine margins. I do believe a full strength Wales, Ireland or England would more than likely beat Argentina on a given day, though its not a 100% given. Which makes the Ireland vs Argentina match all the worse... We seriously need to start building squad depth for the next WC. Its nice and all to have some quality players but it is a bit sad to see how different and less competent the team is without 4 of their main guys. Though to be fair I dont know any teams outside of NZ that would perform as superbly as before losing their 4 star players. Maybe SA.

For the record, heres how I see international rugby at the moment

1 New Zealand
2 South Africa, Australia
3 England, Ireland, Wales, Argentina
4 Scotland
5 France
6 Italy, Fiji, Samoa, Japan
7 Georgia, Romania, Canada, Tonga
Click to expand...

Ireland struggled because Schmidt has built a very effective gameplan around Sexton. It worked incredibly well but unfortunately once Sexton goes out Madigan doesn't quite have the same kicking out of hand ability in order to complement Murray. Combine that with a few of your best forwards being out and you are going to struggle.

I think in order for Ireland to progress they need to be a little bit more flexible in their style in order to allow someone like Madigan to transition in more easily without it ruining the gameplan.
 
I feel Argentina can now realistically be rated alongside the top NH teams. I get why some wouldn't and I suppose its also a question of timing and I might be weighing what I see as Argentina's future too favorably at this stage but my arguments then;

1) Argentina has beaten SA and Aussie in their backyards recently. I can't remember the last time a NH side got one over on us on our turf and Argentina did so convincingly.

2) They have gone very far this RWC and despite losing to NZ, SA and Aus during the course of the tournament only Japan in a once-in-a-lifetime one off managed to not get beaten by those 3 sides who took each other out of the tournament (NZ beating both SA and Aus, Aus and then SA beating Arg during the finals).

3) Is it really fair to say 'oh, well Ireland were depleted'? I'd say if that 'doesn't count' then neither do last year's November wins from Wales and Ireland over an injury hit SA. Injuries and depth requirements are just part and parcel of modern day rugby. I'd go as far as saying SA would've beaten both Aus and NZ this year if it weren't for the differences the benches made in both those fixtures. Your bench and injury cover is just as relevant as your best possible run on XV.

4) Argentina has up till now fielded decidedly B teams in June internationals and November tests are in the NH so the combination of these factors skew recent results in their opposition's favor. This is more than likely to change from now on that their players are playing in a SH (semi) domestic tournament thoug of course we'll only see the results of this later on.

5) In Sanchez, Tuculet, Imhoff and Cordero they now have the world class threats in the backline to work off of their traditional forward strength that they have been lacking in patches in the past other than with their previous 'golden generation' containing Contepomi, Pichot and JMH.
 
Josht36 said:
Ireland struggled because Schmidt has built a very effective gameplan around Sexton. It worked incredibly well but unfortunately once Sexton goes out Madigan doesn't quite have the same kicking out of hand ability in order to complement Murray. Combine that with a few of your best forwards being out and you are going to struggle.

I think in order for Ireland to progress they need to be a little bit more flexible in their style in order to allow someone like Madigan to transition in more easily without it ruining the gameplan.
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The game is built around being dominant at the breakdown more so than Sexton, when we still had that against France Madigan showed his worth. It's more important that guys like Murphy, Henry and Toner can do as much work at the breakdown as the guys they replace. If you watch POM, POC and SOB in defence at least one of them is in every ruck slowing the ball down, the other three didn't bring that.
TRF_stormer2010 said:
I feel Argentina can now realistically be rated alongside the top NH teams. I get why some wouldn't and I suppose its also a question of timing and I might be weighing what I see as Argentina's future too favorably at this stage but my arguments then;

1) Argentina has beaten SA and Aussie in their backyards recently. I can't remember the last time a NH side got one over on us on our turf and Argentina did so convincingly.

2) They have gone very far this RWC and despite losing to NZ, SA and Aus during the course of the tournament only Japan in a once-in-a-lifetime one off managed to not get beaten by those 3 sides who took each other out of the tournament (NZ beating both SA and Aus, Aus and then SA beating Arg during the finals).

3) Is it really fair to say 'oh, well Ireland were depleted'? I'd say if that 'doesn't count' then neither do last year's November wins from Wales and Ireland over an injury hit SA. Injuries and depth requirements are just part and parcel of modern day rugby. I'd go as far as saying SA would've beaten both Aus and NZ this year if it weren't for the differences the benches made in both those fixtures. Your bench and injury cover is just as relevant as your best possible run on XV.

4) Argentina has up till now fielded decidedly B teams in June internationals and November tests are in the NH so the combination of these factors skew recent results in their opposition's favor. This is more than likely to change from now on that their players are playing in a SH (semi) domestic tournament thoug of course we'll only see the results of this later on.

5) In Sanchez, Tuculet, Imhoff and Cordero they now have the world class threats in the backline to work off of their traditional forward strength that they have been lacking in patches in the past other than with their previous 'golden generation' containing Contepomi, Pichot and JMH.
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1) Can be counter argued using your no. 4 argument, we don't send a fully fit side over in the June tours, most players have just finished the most intense part of a nine month club season and have nothing left in the tank.

2) Again you kind of step on your own foot here too, nothing has convinced me that Argentina's QF win was anymore a "once-in-a-lifetime", to use your exaggerated turn of phrase, win than Japan's. If anything, with the exception of the Scottish match, Japan maintained their level of performance after beating SA better than Argentina did after beating Ireland.

3) It is fair to say that in a discussion as to where the team are at relative to other nations. That Ireland side was ****ed from the get go that day, the only vital players who started were Kearney, Heaslip and Ross, six had been lost who had travelled to the tournament. It was the most depleted unit that played a knockout game considering, unlike Wales, both the pack and backline were heavily depleted and our bench replacements were guys who hadn't trained with the team for months due to injury. Argentina played what was in front of them and did their job well and of course the win 'counts' but the injuries have to be considered because it's rare that you'll ever play a team missing influential players across the pitch like Irelamd were that day.

4) Speculation here, we shall see. My guess is that they'll be competitive at home and struggle outside of France, Italy and Scotland in the NH, mere speculation as I said though.

5) This is vital for their growth, they probably need Tucelet to be more controlling from 15 and Sanchez to play more intelligently, they have all the weapons but it's still Hernandez pulling all the strings.

FWIW I think they're at the level of Ireland and Wales but I think in the aftermath of this World Cup we'll see them stagnate again somewhat whereas Ireland and Wales will improve.
 
TRF_stormer2010 said:
(1) Argentina has beaten SA and Aussie in their backyards recently. I can't remember the last time a NH side got one over on us on our turf and Argentina did so convincingly.
Click to expand...

Let me remind you, and it does not happen very often.....



...only six times in the pro era, and three of those were the Lions, which don't really count for the purposes of the point you are making.
 
England haven't beaten SA since November 2006, but in equal measure Argetina last beat us during a Lions tour in 2009 and before that Nov 2006 again.

I don't think the fact we simply can't beat SA in that time frame even at our own home is reason to think Argentina are a step above us now.
 
cmac95 said:
FWIW I think they're at the level of Ireland and Wales but I think in the aftermath of this World Cup we'll see them stagnate again somewhat whereas Ireland and Wales will improve.
Click to expand...
Why? Argentina is a trainsition team right now, and they've kinda stated this plenty of times and the way we play shows. Team has said the objective was 2019, not 2015.
Just as an example, we take a LOT of chances in offence, sometimes unnecessarily, but we do so with the long term in mind and trying to chance/adjust part of our style. That screams transition to me.
I saw Ireland's team, pre-world cup to eliminate performance bias, at their peak. Pretty sure i was not the only one.
I don't really see a case to support that Ireland's medium term looks more promising than Argentina's.

Add the fact that 90% of Argentina's team will be playing together in super rugby and i'm very happy with our odds for 2019.


EDIT:
1) Argentina has beaten SA and Aussie in their backyards recently.
Click to expand...

Small correction if you don't mind. We beat Australia at home in 2014.

 
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Gotta say that Argentina has earned its spot on the rankings, NH teams and their fans would do well to acknowledge this, lest you be surprised when they one-up your teams. This team is far better than the Argies of old, and they will only get more threatening because of the RC. I saw so many Ireland fans in particular write them off completely saying things like "They're still up and coming" etc. Just think that it's time to admit Argentina has what it takes to beat any side (only a matter of time for NZ tbh)
 
Look at it this way (and I know there were mitigating factors to this) in 2007 Argentina beat France twice and Ireland once on the way to third place losing one match against SA in the following 8 years they've beaten Ireland once in this world cup but have routinely beaten France who have been mostly on a downward trend (but France still edges it by one game). This time they lost to every SH team.

They beat Aus last year which everyone thought may struggle to get out their group (till Pocock/Cheika turned it round) and SA this year who managed somehow to lose to Japan (which shouldn't happen no matter how good a coach Eddie Jones is).

I think we are reading too much into one or two good wins.

- - - Updated - - -

Bringing Wales into equation they've beaten them once since 2007 but only played 4 games.

Seriously I know they are a better side but it's going to take way more consistent results against top NH sides before I'll rank them above us.
 


...only six times in the pro era, and three of those were the Lions, which don't really count for the purposes of the point you are making.
Click to expand...

That would explain why I can't remember so well. I know there were a few close shaves and a draw or two but then Argentina have been pushing us close as well and got the draw last year.

ncurd said:
England haven't beaten SA since November 2006, but in equal measure Argetina last beat us during a Lions tour in 2009 and before that Nov 2006 again.

I don't think the fact we simply can't beat SA in that time frame even at our own home is reason to think Argentina are a step above us now.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone here is saying Argentina are a step above England. I'd go even further and say I see England as probably still the team to beat in Europe. My point was I think Argentina should be thought of as in the same league as the top Euro teams (Ireland, England, Wales) going on recent results.

This is all just opinion and some of my points are pure conjecture of course.

I'll have to get back to CMAC when I have the time.
 
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TRF_stormer2010 said:
I feel Argentina can now realistically be rated alongside the top NH teams. I get why some wouldn't and I suppose its also a question of timing and I might be weighing what I see as Argentina's future too favorably at this stage but my arguments then;

1) Argentina has beaten SA and Aussie in their backyards recently. I can't remember the last time a NH side got one over on us on our turf and Argentina did so convincingly.
Click to expand...

In fairness, I can't actually remember the last time Ireland played in South Africa. I think the last time was when Jake White was in charge, around 2004.
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Why? Argentina is a trainsition team right now, and they've kinda stated this plenty of times and the way we play shows. Team has said the objective was 2019, not 2015.
Just as an example, we take a LOT of chances in offence, sometimes unnecessarily, but we do so with the long term in mind and trying to chance/adjust part of our style. That screams transition to me.
I saw Ireland's team, pre-world cup to eliminate performance bias, at their peak. Pretty sure i was not the only one.
I don't really see a case to support that Ireland's medium term looks more promising than Argentina's.

Add the fact that 90% of Argentina's team will be playing together in super rugby and i'm very happy with our odds for 2019.


EDIT:

Small correction if you don't mind. We beat Australia at home in 2014.

[/FONT][/COLOR]
Click to expand...

As a South African, I am scared of what might happen with Argentina over the next four years. They essentially have their national team playing together for 8/9 months every year. It's a bit crazy. I don't know whose great idea it was to put them in Super Rugby with only one team. The only problem I can see popping up is a lack of depth (surely if you only have one team to pick your national squad and decent players I would assume would not be interested in sitting in rafters for a season with better players in front of them you struggle with depth). I'm very happy that the Stormers are in the pool with the Sunwolves instead of the Puma team. Good luck Kings, Lions and Sharks... but I think the Argentinians will be topping your table next year.
 
big ginger 8 said:
In fairness, I can't actually remember the last time Ireland played in South Africa. I think the last time was when Jake White was in charge, around 2004.
Click to expand...
Yup 2004

- - - Updated - - -
Pro-era games

8 November 2014 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 29 – 15 Ireland 2014 Autumn International
10 November 2012 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 12 – 16 South Africa 2012 Autumn International
6 November 2010 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 21 – 23 South Africa 2010 Autumn International
28 November 2009 Croke Park, Dublin 15 – 10 Ireland 2009 Autumn International
11 November 2006 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 32 – 15 Ireland 2006 Autumn International
13 November 2004 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 17 – 12 Ireland 2004 Autumn International
19 June 2004 Newlands, Cape Town 26 – 17 South Africa 2004 Ireland rugby union tour of South Africa
12 June 2004 Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein 31 – 17 South Africa
19 November 2000 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 18 – 28 South Africa
28 November 1998 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 13 – 27 South Africa
20 June 1998 Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria 33 – 0 South Africa 1998 Ireland rugby union tour of South Africa
13 June 1998 Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein, South Africa 37 – 13 South Africa
 
big ginger 8 said:
In fairness, I can't actually remember the last time Ireland played in South Africa. I think the last time was when Jake White was in charge, around 2004.
Click to expand...

Yip, 2004 last you came to SA. Overall SA has it 7/0 at home and 9/5 in Ireland but the recent history goes to Ireland. You are visiting our shores next year though for a 3 match tour. I have no idea what to expect though. SA rugby is up in the air ATM. It just might be good timing by Ireland travelling here next year and I'm sure your boys will facy their chances.
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Why? Argentina is a trainsition team right now, and they've kinda stated this plenty of times and the way we play shows. Team has said the objective was 2019, not 2015.
Just as an example, we take a LOT of chances in offence, sometimes unnecessarily, but we do so with the long term in mind and trying to chance/adjust part of our style. That screams transition to me.
I saw Ireland's team, pre-world cup to eliminate performance bias, at their peak. Pretty sure i was not the only one.
I don't really see a case to support that Ireland's medium term looks more promising than Argentina's.

Add the fact that 90% of Argentina's team will be playing together in super rugby and i'm very happy with our odds for 2019.


EDIT:

Small correction if you don't mind. We beat Australia at home in 2014.

[/FONT][/COLOR]
Click to expand...
Hernandez and Fernandez Lobbe. Hernandez remained you're most important back, he was Sanchez's eyes and ears and I'm not convinced that Argentina have an adequate replacement for him. Without a creative 9 or 10 I think Sanchez will struggle hugely, he's not a very intelligent rugby player and will easily be exposed under pressure. Fernandez Lobbe was also the brains of the pack and played a vital link role that will not easily be replaced.

My estimate is for the medium term and based around them not having a huge amount of influential players with experience. In 2017 I'd expect they'd be able to build again and have similar top level resources as Ireland and Wales. Wales and Ireland's cycle is more based on maximising potential at any given time because we'll never have te resources to win a World Cup by design our only chance is having the right personnel at the right time and fluking it a bit, we'll forever stay as the benchmark for European sides as RWC quarter or semi finalists depending on the draw and teams will have to be better than us to win the thing or contest in the latter stages.

I think 2019 is a bit premature for Argentina to think it's their time to go to the next level, they'll be a world superpower but I think it's 10+ years down the line and I don't think much improvement shall be expected for 2019.

Another thing that would worry me about Los Jaguares is the risk of them going stale, there's a difference in club and international level rugby and playing as essentially the same team in both is more likely to result in them playing to club level constantly rather than international. There's a fine line between having cohesion from club level shine through to international and while the likes of France don't have enough players playing with each other in their clubs, Argentina are risking going the opposite way.

- - - Updated - - -
ncurd said:
Yup 2004


- - - Updated - - -
Pro-era games


8 November 2014 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 29 – 15 Ireland 2014 Autumn International
10 November 2012 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 12 – 16 South Africa 2012 Autumn International
6 November 2010 Aviva Stadium, Dublin 21 – 23 South Africa 2010 Autumn International
28 November 2009 Croke Park, Dublin 15 – 10 Ireland 2009 Autumn International
11 November 2006 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 32 – 15 Ireland 2006 Autumn International
13 November 2004 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 17 – 12 Ireland 2004 Autumn International
19 June 2004 Newlands, Cape Town 26 – 17 South Africa 2004 Ireland rugby union tour of South Africa
12 June 2004 Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein 31 – 17 South Africa
19 November 2000 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 18 – 28 South Africa
28 November 1998 Lansdowne Road, Dublin 13 – 27 South Africa
20 June 1998 Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria 33 – 0 South Africa 1998 Ireland rugby union tour of South Africa
13 June 1998 Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein, South Africa 37 – 13 South Africa
Click to expand...


Ireland have never played SA in a RWC?!! That'd be a cool fixture in 2019!
 
I'll give it a go:

1. New Zealand
2. Australia
3. South Africa
4. Argentina
5. Ireland
6. Wales
7. England
8. France
9. Japan
10. Scotland
11. Fiji
12. Italy
13. Georgia
14. Samoa
15. Tonga
16. Romania
17. USA
18. Canada
19. Namibia
20. Uruguay

Potential Controversies:

Ireland above Wales - yeah, VC will clearly have a problem with it, but I think any logical human being would agree with me in saying Ireland are a better side, unbeaten in their group and the match they lost they was a really good game in which they were the better side for a good amount, but just not good enough overall.

Scotland in 10th, below Japan and England - I'm sorry I really don't think Scotland were that good this tournment, scraped a victory over a poor Samoan side, beat a knackered Japanese side and lost to an Australian side that tried their best to give the Scottish as many points as they could. If Australia and Foley had played like that against England then there is no way the English would have let them back into that, same with the Welsh or any other side in that top 10.
 
cmac95 said:
Hernandez and Fernandez Lobbe. Hernandez remained you're most important back, he was Sanchez's eyes and ears and I'm not convinced that Argentina have an adequate replacement for him. Without a creative 9 or 10 I think Sanchez will struggle hugely, he's not a very intelligent rugby player and will easily be exposed under pressure. Fernandez Lobbe was also the brains of the pack and played a vital link role that will not easily be replaced.

My estimate is for the medium term and based around them not having a huge amount of influential players with experience. In 2017 I'd expect they'd be able to build again and have similar top level resources as Ireland and Wales. Wales and Ireland's cycle is more based on maximising potential at any given time because we'll never have te resources to win a World Cup by design our only chance is having the right personnel at the right time and fluking it a bit, we'll forever stay as the benchmark for European sides as RWC quarter or semi finalists depending on the draw and teams will have to be better than us to win the thing or contest in the latter stages.

I think 2019 is a bit premature for Argentina to think it's their time to go to the next level, they'll be a world superpower but I think it's 10+ years down the line and I don't think much improvement shall be expected for 2019.

Another thing that would worry me about Los Jaguares is the risk of them going stale, there's a difference in club and international level rugby and playing as essentially the same team in both is more likely to result in them playing to club level constantly rather than international. There's a fine line between having cohesion from club level shine through to international and while the likes of France don't have enough players playing with each other in their clubs, Argentina are risking going the opposite way.
Click to expand...
Don't think you are being very fair. You mention all the downsides but none of the upsides. How about that Moroni/Cordero/Tuculet/Imhoff are all still getting better? How about the rest of the forwards?
Our RC squad was, on average, almost 2 years younger than Ireland's. 1,7 years to be exact.
I think Argentina's play spoke volumes: it was very nice, entertaining and fast paced, but it was filled with unforced errors, half misses and stupid risks. All of the above, to me, are crystal clear signs of transition. We have a plan and so far we're sticking to it. We are very happy about 2015's results but the goal was and still is 2019.

And regarding the downsides, I'll give you Fernandez Lobbe, but i disagree with Hernandez. He has become a liability half the time the tries one of his tricks.

One last thing about 2019: i'm not saying we'll win it, nothing of that sort. What i am saying, is that unlike the rest of the WCs, we'll (want to) think of ourselves as a mature, solid team that can give anyone a genuine run for their money anyday and beat (almost) anyone when we have a good day and they have a mediocre one. We would like to prove (partly to ourselves) that 2007 and 2015 were not flukes.

And about our Super Rugby Franchise, i honestly cannot think how you can spin that in order to make it sound as if it didn't benefit us. Almost unfairly i'd say.
 
Cruz_del_Sur said:
Don't think you are being very fair. You mention all the downsides but none of the upsides. How about that Moroni/Cordero/Tuculet/Imhoff are all still getting better? How about the rest of the forwards?
Our RC squad was, on average, almost 2 years younger than Ireland's. 1,7 years to be exact.
I think Argentina's play spoke volumes: it was very nice, entertaining and fast paced, but it was filled with unforced errors, half misses and stupid risks. All of the above, to me, are crystal clear signs of transition. We have a plan and so far we're sticking to it. We are very happy about 2015's results but the goal was and still is 2019.

And regarding the downsides, I'll give you Fernandez Lobbe, but i disagree with Hernandez. He has become a liability half the time the tries one of his tricks.

One last thing about 2019: i'm not saying we'll win it, nothing of that sort. What i am saying, is that unlike the rest of the WCs, we'll (want to) think of ourselves as a mature, solid team that can give anyone a genuine run for their money anyday and beat (almost) anyone when we have a good day and they have a mediocre one. We would like to prove (partly to ourselves) that 2007 and 2015 were not flukes.

And about our Super Rugby Franchise, i honestly cannot think how you can spin that in order to make it sound as if it didn't benefit us. Almost unfairly i'd say.
Click to expand...
First of all I'm loosely basing this from now until 2018, 2019 is not on my mind.

I mentioned in my first post how vital it is that Tucelet becomes playmaker and can control a game from 15 and I could see him doing a good and possibly more important job at 12. You've got an incredible amount of dangerous strike runners but without Hernandez and JMFB I think you could struggle to unleash them until the likes of Tucelet and Moroni can, I don't think Sanchez can do it on his own, Argentina have always relied on having playmakers at 10 and 12 to be a strong side and I think the 12 part of that will take time to develop for this team.

As for the age gap, I wrote a post on another thread saying that for all the players Ireland are losing they have capped replacements, some of whom have the ability to be world class. Joe Schmidt has done an impressive and very 'kiwi like' job in making sure his replacements had international experience, had he been coach since 2011 those injuries probably wouldn't have been such a problem. I think all teams get worse after a World Cup but I think Joe will have Ireland at the pace they were against France by this time next year, unfortunately I don't see as much room for improvement beyond that as the likes of Argentina will have.

I'm not being pessimistic to Argentina's hopes I just don't think that the improvements will be instant like some others on here do. They're currently a top 7 side (not the 7th best) and I think they'll be considered that in 4 years time too, they'll be stronger than they are now but I think it'll be a struggle for them to get there. After 2019 is when I see you lot getting scary and being a constant in the top 4 if NH rugby doesn't get it's act together.

As for Los Jaguares, I think it's fair to expect a team playing at superugby level week in week out to struggle to make the jump to international level. It's pure speculation though as there's no precedent or stats for it. I think the UAR should push for another superugby side though.
 

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