How can teams counter this England game plan?

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not saying it would've worked, the Welsh linespeed was very good and they committed players to the ruck on their own terms after tipuric got blown away a number of times early on - favouring a full line over potential turnovers - however we didn't even try and trouble the defence for most of the game.
It was 1 or 2 phases to try and get an angle and then kick - no attempt to tie in players or even threaten anything different to keep people guessing

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also another big issue, the bloody lopsided penalty count again. The amount of ground you lose from a penalty is larger than just about any other mistake you can make short of a clean break. Teams do all they can to ensure clean brakes don't happen but England really don't seem to care about our discipline going to pot.

If you are going to base your gameplan on territory and applying pressure through strong defense, you need to have very good discipline or you completely nullify your own gameplan.

My pet peeve is compounding one penalty with another almost immediately after and Sinckler was guilty of that. Kruis pulling the arm of the Welsh jumper in their 22 was extremely stupid. If they are in their 22 then let them have the ball, they will most likely kick it out anyway. Accidental penalties are one thing but England have not shaken the habit of giving away absolutely ******* idiotic ones. The team as a whole don't seem to really grasp how much of an issue it is.

 

[Jashay]

I'm not saying it would've worked, the Welsh linespeed was very good and they committed players to the ruck on their own terms after tipuric got blown away a number of times early on - favouring a full line over potential turnovers - however we didn't even try and trouble the defence for most of the game.
It was 1 or 2 phases to try and get an angle and then kick - no attempt to tie in players or even threaten anything different to keep people guessing

I just went back through the 1st half looking at the number of phases before kicking/mess up: There were only 3 times in the first half where England went through more than 3 phases; right at the start there were 6 phases going from just in the England half to halfway into Wales' (Lawes knock-on), 4 phases at 13 minutes where we took a quick free kick knocking on their 5m line until Faz passed forwards, and 4 phases where Curry scored.

Except for the attack at 39:50, those were our most dangerous moments.

Outside of those 3, the average number of phases was less than 2. England were avoiding contact like the plague

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I'm not saying it would've worked, the Welsh linespeed was very good and they committed players to the ruck on their own terms after tipuric got blown away a number of times early on - favouring a full line over potential turnovers - however we didn't even try and trouble the defence for most of the game.
It was 1 or 2 phases to try and get an angle and then kick - no attempt to tie in players or even threaten anything different to keep people guessing

Calm down I didn't say you said it would work only that that was the English game plan, which was what Wales had to stop and they did. Because the speed of the welsh defence was so good Farrell had little choice on times other than kick. Ohh! I'm taking the dogs out again.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Calm down I didn't say you said it would work only that that was the English game plan, which was what Wales had to stop and they did. Because the speed of the welsh defence was so good Farrell had little choice on times other than kick. Ohh! I'm taking the dogs out again.

I am calm?
And I'm agreeing with you?

 

[Scotty]

I bet you feel really stupid now,

We defended hard, and carried hard and the wierd thing for me is i dont remember us playing badly. What we were was tacticly bad and kicked the ball away to strong defence and when it didnt work....we did it again. We made over 200 tackles and didnt bring on subs and wondered why we wernt winning. The game was ours to lose and we screwed it up.

Wales played well and a deserved win.

 

[smartcooky]

Here's my 2p/2c worth

England game plan may have been quite successful (although it wasn't against Wales) but if they are going to kick the ball away to outstanding counter-attacking teams like Australia or New Zealand, they had better make sure they...

a: find dirt
b: find it close to a touchline or the goal-line
c: chase very fast.

If they don't do all three, they will get burned.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I am calm?
And I'm agreeing with you?

You are! well, we'll have to agree to agree.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

We defended hard, and carried hard and the wierd thing for me is i dont remember us playing badly. What we were was tacticly bad and kicked the ball away to strong defence and when it didnt work....we did it again. We made over 200 tackles and didnt bring on subs and wondered why we wernt winning. The game was ours to lose and we screwed it up.

Wales played well and a deserved win.

Now I feel stupid, we stopped you at source, before your big ball carriers could gain momentum, they were tackled and put to the floor, leaving the follow up players no momentum to take out the welsh players who had formed a ruck, so your ball was slowed down far more than Ireland and France managed where you were able to suck in wider defensive players, whereas you weren't allowed to do this against the Welsh.
Which then they started to kick for field position, but the welsh back three could deal with it, so turned a defensive situation to attack.. they did tend to kick too much, they should have taken it up more, but its easy to condemn. I believe there are positives to be taken from this, I cant see England doing that again, they will become stronger for it. A wise old coach once said to me if you let the opposition play to their strengths you deserve too lose. A game plan is just that, its one thing to know whats coming another to be able to stop it.
England are a good side and they will be a better side if they learn from this game

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Now I feel stupid, we stopped you at source, before your big ball carriers could gain momentum, they were tackled and put to the floor, leaving the follow up players no momentum to take out the welsh players who had formed a ruck, so your ball was slowed down far more than Ireland and France managed where you were able to suck in wider defensive players, whereas you weren't allowed to do this against the Welsh.
Which then they started to kick for field position, but the welsh back three could deal with it, so turned a defensive situation to attack.. they did tend to kick too much, they should have taken it up more, but its easy to condemn. I believe there are positives to be taken from this, I cant see England doing that again, they will become stronger for it. A wise old coach once said to me if you let the opposition play to their strengths you deserve too lose. A game plan is just that, its one thing to know whats coming another to be able to stop it.
England are a good side and they will be a better side if they learn from this game

The thing is we didn't carry for many phases at all. It's not like we spend ages hammering away at the Welsh defence failing to get through, we'd carry maybe 3 times and then kick. Not wanting to take anything away from the Welsh but it's less a case of they didn't allow us to do it and more we didn't even try to do it. What Wales didn't allow us to do is make easy meters with aimless kicking or have easy takes when Wales kicked the ball.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

The thing is we didn't carry for many phases at all. It's not like we spend ages hammering away at the Welsh defence failing to get through, we'd carry maybe 3 times and then kick. Not wanting to take anything away from the Welsh but it's less a case of they didn't allow us to do it and more we didn't even try to do it. What Wales didn't allow us to do is make easy meters with aimless kicking or have easy takes when Wales kicked the ball.

Yeah, but when you close a side down they are limited with their options, you beat Ireland with quick recycling crash ball from Tuilagi and billy, who broke the gain line allowing English forwards to rush and clean out giving them quick ball to go again which you did effectively. Wales took away your strength and you were at a loss what to do next.
Also Farrell was given special treatment and it did put him off his game, the try you scored was when Tipric was holding Youngs to the floor, which Curry saw an opening and took it. look I've already said that England are a good side and will learn from this, and will be more difficult to stop the next time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah, but when you close a side down they are limited with their options, you beat Ireland with quick recycling crash ball from Tuilagi and billy, who broke the gain line allowing English forwards to rush and clean out giving them quick ball to go again which you did effectively. Wales took away your strength and you were at a loss what to do next.
Also Farrell was given special treatment and it did put him off his game, the try you scored was when Tipric was holding Youngs to the floor, which Curry saw an opening and took it. look I've already said that England are a good side and will learn from this, and will be more difficult to stop the next time.

I think you missed the point, Wales didn't really prevent England by closing them down because England weren't even making an attempt to pass the ball, we were looking to kick right from the off regardless of whether the Welsh rushed up or not. If anything the fact the Welsh knew they didn't need to rush up is what helped them more. We were able to make inroads into Welsh territory a fair few times but butchered all of them with knock ons or penalties. We also didn't employ the rush defence against Wales like we did against France and Ireland, we mostly sat back and let the Welsh run at us in the 2nd half.

 

[dullonien]

I think you missed the point, Wales didn't really prevent England by closing them down because England weren't even making an attempt to pass the ball, we were looking to kick right from the off regardless of whether the Welsh rushed up or not. If anything the fact the Welsh knew they didn't need to rush up is what helped them more. We were able to make inroads into Welsh territory a fair few times but butchered all of them with knock ons or penalties. We also didn't employ the rush defence against Wales like we did against France and Ireland, we mostly sat back and let the Welsh run at us in the 2nd half.

I think that's overly discrediting Wales and putting too much on England playing poorly / getting their tactics wrong.

I think Wales did well early on shutting down the English carriers, e.g. Tipuric's tackle on Vunipola with a full head of steam which was wrongly penalised. There were times that England made ground, but not as much as usual, and that pressured England into kicking the ball. 2 poor Welsh errors handed England their try, otherwise Wales looked comfortouble ddefensively throughout.

Gareth Davies also performed a superb defensive role, rushing up quickly and forcing Farrel back against the grain, and cutting off the English midfield.

Granted England could have done more. They should have ensured they got Tuilagi into the game, and should have adapted their carrying game.

Regarding Englands linespeed, this was all about Wales adapting to their rush defense. In the first 20-30min Wales were trying to carry a little wider from the ruck, with flat passing from Gareth Davies. This allowed the English rush defense + double tackles to smash the Welsh carriers back behind the gain line. In the last 10min of the first half and in the second half Wales completely changed their carrying strategy, instead opting for pick and go's around the fringes of the ruck which completely negated Englands linespeed.

Ultimately there was probably a combination of England playing poorly and Wales playing well/negating England's strengths.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think that's overly discrediting Wales and putting too much on England playing poorly / getting their tactics wrong.

I think Wales did well early on shutting down the English carriers, e.g. Tipuric's tackle on Vunipola with a full head of steam which was wrongly penalised. There were times that England made ground, but not as much as usual, and that pressured England into kicking the ball. 2 poor Welsh errors handed England their try, otherwise Wales looked comfortouble ddefensively throughout.

Gareth Davies also performed a superb defensive role, rushing up quickly and forcing Farrel back against the grain, and cutting off the English midfield.

Granted England could have done more. They should have ensured they got Tuilagi into the game, and should have adapted their carrying game.

Regarding Englands linespeed, this was all about Wales adapting to their rush defense. In the first 20-30min Wales were trying to carry a little wider from the ruck, with flat passing from Gareth Davies. This allowed the English rush defense + double tackles to smash the Welsh carriers back behind the gain line. In the last 10min of the first half and in the second half Wales completely changed their carrying strategy, instead opting for pick and go's around the fringes of the ruck which completely negated Englands linespeed.

Ultimately there was probably a combination of England playing poorly and Wales playing well/negating England's strengths.

I've said it's not a criticism of Wales but saying a team beat a strategy when a team weren't even trying said strategy just makes no sense. If a team kicked very rarely in a game, you wouldn't say the other team "negated" the kicking strategy, you'd say the first team simply didn't employ it in the first place. Likewise I don't think it's right saying Wales negated England's carrying because England simply weren't looking to carry much at all.

Actually England's first try came from Tipuric choosing to pin Youngs on the ground rather than getting back in the guard position.

I have already said Wales did well by negating England's kicking game, not our carrying. They were more able to negate the kicking precisely because we made no attempt to carry. You can go back and see how many times England kept the ball for more than 5 phases.

 

[Thingimubob]

I've said it's not a criticism of Wales but saying a team beat a strategy when a team weren't even trying said strategy just makes no sense. If a team kicked very rarely in a game, you wouldn't say the other team "negated" the kicking strategy, you'd say the first team simply didn't employ it in the first place. Likewise I don't think it's right saying Wales negated England's carrying because England simply weren't looking to carry much at all.

Actually England's first try came from Tipuric choosing to pin Youngs on the ground rather than getting back in the guard position.

I have already said Wales did well by negating England's kicking game, not our carrying. They were more able to negate the kicking precisely because we made no attempt to carry. You can go back and see how many times England kept the ball for more than 5 phases.

How many times did they keep it for more than 5 phases in the first two games as well I wonder?

Something I said pre-match was it'll be interesting to see what will happen if England are forced to go through the phases... and well we still haven't seen that?

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I think you missed the point, Wales didn't really prevent England by closing them down because England weren't even making an attempt to pass the ball, we were looking to kick right from the off regardless of whether the Welsh rushed up or not. If anything the fact the Welsh knew they didn't need to rush up is what helped them more. We were able to make inroads into Welsh territory a fair few times but butchered all of them with knock ons or penalties. We also didn't employ the rush defence against Wales like we did against France and Ireland, we mostly sat back and let the Welsh run at us in the 2nd half.

Well I think we were both watching through different eyes, England's game plan was to dominate the opposition with their physicality, Use their big ball carriers to break the gain line and recycle quick ball making wider defenders to come in and defend thus leaving wide spaces for the kickers to exploit, they did this against Ireland and France.
Wales were able to stop their ball carriers, I think Tuilagi broke once Vunipolo (SP) again just the once, so Englands Game plan was stopped before it could start. You have pointed out Tipric holding down Youngs , But we did it to your half backs all through the game, your Halfbacks received the ball and they couldn't get rid of it fast enough, basically we spoilt the party by matching you physically and you had no answer to it.
Your halfbacks and your ball carriers were below par and that's as I saw it.

 

[Which Tyler]

Well I think we were both watching through different eyes, England's game plan was to dominate the opposition with their physicality,

I think this is the key, because absolutely nothing about the way England have been approaching the 6N comes close to your second sentence.
If our aim was to with contact we would have taken contact more often.
Of our aim was to use our big ball carriers, eednhave at least tried to get the ball in the hands of our big ball carriers.
If our aim was to recycle quickly, we wouldn't select Ben Young's.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

I think this is the key, because absolutely nothing about the way England have been approaching the 6N comes close to your second sentence.
If our aim was to with contact we would have taken contact more often.
Of our aim was to use our big ball carriers, eednhave at least tried to get the ball in the hands of our big ball carriers.
If our aim was to recycle quickly, we wouldn't select Ben Young's.

Right