How can teams counter this England game plan?

[TRF_Olyy]

I bet you feel really stupid now,

Because he asked how Wales can beat it?
He didn't say they can't, he asked how.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Because he asked how Wales can beat it?
He didn't say they can't, he asked how.

now he knows.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

now he knows.

Maybe you could share it with the class?
Seeing as this is a thread for discussing gameplans and not just smuggery?

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Maybe you could share it with the class?
Seeing as this is a thread for discussing gameplans and not just smuggery?

hmm! he was being disingenuous, and Contemptuous, people who know the game knew how they could be beat, how 's that for smugness.

 

[bushytop]

Maybe you could share it with the class?
Seeing as this is a thread for discussing gameplans and not just smuggery?

It weren't meant to be smug, more ironic.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

God, I love the Saurus too!

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

It weren't meant to be smug, more ironic.

I think that was aimed at me,

 

[bushytop]

I think that was aimed at me,

Ah well, I could see how mine could be misinterpreted too. Good night Dai?

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Ah well, I could see how mine could be misinterpreted too. Good night Dai?

yeah, you too.

 

[bushytop]

yeah, you too.

Not bad

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Welsh fans right now

 

[bushytop]

Welsh fans right now

Temporary smug mode vs permanent smeg mode.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Welsh fans right now

Crikey England won the WC in 03 and they still beat the drum, we didn't have a chance against you every one told us, including the Media and we're smug That's rich.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Correct

 

[MikeTheNative]

Picking an actual 15 at 15 helped as well as always having another player in the back field to cover as well. But Wales stopped England from getting over the gain line and slowed the ball down, giving Farrell less time and also space to kick at. In attack Wales didn't even really bother with ball in hand most of the time, just wanted to play England in a kicking battle. With Anscombe on the field it didn't really work, started to get a bit better in the 2nd half but when Biggar came on, England where 2nd best at the kicking battle.

 

[Jashay]

I think a big part of it was that England weren't getting wide quickly enough to draw the Welsh backs up, which is what made their kicking so ineffective. My initial impression that excellent work by Wales at the breakdown and good use of a 4-man blitz pressured England into kicking, but when I rewatched the match sober Wales weren't actually bossing the breakdown all that much. England only lost one ruck when May got isolated, and the ball was frequently presented quicker than Youngs could actually get to the breakdown (which may have been part of the problem)

The blitz was effective, but we moved it wide so rarely it didn't come up much. Of course, it could be that we didn't move it wide because we were worried about the blitz.

Something clever that Wales did to defuse the England kicking game was they would always try and leave two players behind the England chase to catch knockbacks. It was really effective.

But at the end of the day I think Jiffy (of all people) hit the nail on the head when he came out with 'England are kicking far too early'

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's the old adage of "earn the right to go wide"
You've gotta earn the right to kick - throw Manu and Binny at the defensive line a few times to draw in defenders, force the back three to move up to plug the gaps and then kick behind.
If they know you're gonna kick after 1 or 2 phases they can just hang out in the backfield knowing the ball is coming their way

 

[Which Tyler]

There's the old adage of "earn the right to go wide"
You've gotta earn the right to kick - throw Manu and Binny at the defensive line a few times to draw in defenders, force the back three to move up to plug the gaps and then kick behind.
If they know you're gonna kick after 1 or 2 phases they can just hang out in the backfield knowing the ball is coming their way

Exactly - we earned that right against Ireland, by moving the ball around; pulling their wingers up to defend the ball going wide; and exploiting that Henshaw was late adapting to this.
We earned that right against France, by looking at the team they'd selected, and knowing that their back 3 were never going to be on the same page, and if they're ever actually in the right position at the right time, it'd be by mistake.

We then saw that Wales selected an actual back 3, who knew what their roles were, and where they should be, did nothing to manipulate them out of position, and just expected them to have forgotten how to play rugby. Hell, even when the ball did get out into the OC channel, they often went straigt for the charge-down of a grubber, rather than actually tackle the ball carrier - because that was just what we were doing!

We all said before the game that England needed to show Plan B (and many of us were annoyed we hadn't given it a run out in the last 20 against France); keping the ball in hand; using Manu's hard running and Slade's distribution to get May/Daly one on one with a little space. Turns out that Plan B was to try Plan A too early, with no thought to experience, and poor execution.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I can't remember who said it but it was mentioned on Irish telly that every team's defensive system this year is to play massively offside, more than before, and to block, legally or illegally, chasers of every contestable. To be honest, until that is sorted out by officials attacking innovation will count for little against good sides (England did show it could destroy a bad side and a team who just aren't quite at the races so far this tournament). Currently when two strong sides at the top of their game play (rare) it's all be about ball retention and numerous small gains outweighing the five meter losses you experience when you eventually get a system failure and send a lone runner into contact, Wales were better in this regard on Saturday and won and Ireland's superiority there gave them just enough to beat NZ in November.

In my opinion England literally kicked that game away, when they did try to retain possession Wales were making some amateur mistakes and Curry's try is the best example of that. Overall there was just a lack of patience or a lack of trust in one another to keep hold of the ball. If patience is the issue that's probably more worrying because it suggests immaturity within the teams decision makers who are all seasoned pros. Lack of trust would be understandable and fixable prior to the World Cup, this squad has lost games while being wholly uncompetitive, thrown big leads and lost big games that came down to the wire all within the last 12 months, it takes time and a tough loss here and there to become dominant.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

There's the old adage of "earn the right to go wide"
You've gotta earn the right to kick - throw Manu and Binny at the defensive line a few times to draw in defenders, force the back three to move up to plug the gaps and then kick behind.
If they know you're gonna kick after 1 or 2 phases they can just hang out in the backfield knowing the ball is coming their way

Hmmm, Speed I believe was the major factor, the speed of the blitz defence.
When the ball carrier was tackled usually after they broke the gain line, the clean out was done by two English forwards immediately they went to ground, allowing the 9 to clear the ball quickly.
Thus making the opposition defence to narrow in response, ultimately bringing in the wingers to defend the line also.
This gave the English No10 all the time to look for opportunities to strike.
What I've highlighted is what the English team did in their first two games, so a way had to be found to try and stop this, as we know knowing something and stopping it are two very different things


What the Welsh team did was too deny their ball carriers momentum, tackled them before the threat of a quick clear out by slowing their ball down, therefor our defensive line could keep its shape
when this didn't work they panicked a little and kicked everything, also I feel Farrell was targeted, it was essential that the Half backs were put under pressure, trust me I am not being smug when I say it was a gamr plan that was initiated by a good welsh team, Because the best laid plans can sometimes fall apart.