How about independent refs during super 15 matches????!!!!!

[Cave Dweller]

Funny you say that,

The way the game is being ruled now the commentators don't know the laws but that's not the problem, the fans don't know the laws, neither do the players and that is a problem.

What's ok one week is not the next, the scrums and breakdowns and even Mauls are a black hole where anything could happen

I love rugby, but I look at league now and I can watch it and the vast majority of the time games the refs are not a factor, right now Rugby Union seems to be totally dominated by the refs and what they decide to see or ignore and which direction they point their arm.

Can't compare rugby union with league as there is no forward battles. Rugby union is probably the only game in the world where there can be a contest for possession at every facet and phase of the game. Do not break the laws and the ref will not pin you. Its simple

 

[Sker]

Very informative flow chart

 

[Larksea]

Can't compare rugby union with league as there is no forward battles. Rugby union is probably the only game in the world where there can be a contest for possession at every facet and phase of the game. Do not break the laws and the ref will not pin you. Its simple

yeah the problem is if you don't push the laws to the limit your not contesting possession anyway. If you go by the book rules get broken at pretty much every single breakdown. Heck at the start of the super15 refs were blowing up for players on the ground over the ball constantly now every almost every ruck you get players on the ground over the ball going off their feet and the refs never blow. The rules and the way they are being applied is an absolute mess.

 

[Cave Dweller]

yeah the problem is if you don't push the laws to the limit your not contesting possession anyway. If you go by the book rules get broken at pretty much every single breakdown. Heck at the start of the super15 refs were blowing up for players on the ground over the ball constantly now every almost every ruck you get players on the ground over the ball going off their feet and the refs never blow. The rules and the way they are being applied is an absolute mess.

That is why they will only blow it up if it interferes with play. Lot of side entries and such they do not blow up for. Guessing is something the top referees never do. They would rather admit to missing a transgression than to whistle a transgression that did not happen.

 

[smartcooky]

Ian Smith is a Super Rugby Reserve Panel referee. He's Australian, so he was independent in the Highlanders v Bulls match

Simple mathematics is the answer to the OP's question.

In order to fairly distribute the workload for referees in a competition where there are an equal number of teams from three different countries, we need to have an equal number of referees from each country. Currently, Australia simply does not have enough referees that are up to the standard required for the Merit Panel

South Africa is head of the pack with five referees on the Merit Panel (Craig Joubert, Jon Kaplan, Marius Jonker, Jaco Peyper & Mark Lawrence), New Zealand has four (Keith Brown, Bryce Lawrence, Chris Pollock and Garratt Williamson), while Australia has only one, Steve Walsh. The Merit Panel do the majority of games in Super Rugby.

For a match between two teams from the same country, any referee is independent

For a match between two teams from different countries, only a referee from the third country is independent

Until we have roughly an even number of referees at the same relative level from each country, this problem is going to remain. I can't see it being fixed any time soon.

 

[Cave Dweller]

But will it make a difference having a independent referee? Will a independent one pick up on mistakes others did not? If so then what the people are implying that a non independent referee who is a professional and has sworn a oath is actually cheating and breaking that oath because he is blowing according to the laws and not the supporters knowledge of it?

 

[TNT88]

But will it make a difference having a independent referee? Will a independent one pick up on mistakes others did not? If so then what the people are implying that a non independent referee who is a professional and has sworn a oath is actually cheating and breaking that oath because he is blowing according to the laws and not the supporters knowledge of it?

Yeah, that is a point everyone seems to agree with. I'm sure in a game between NZ and SA or AUS and SA the players would rather have Craig Joubert than Bryce Lawrence, but some people prefer to dream otherwise it seems.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Or Jonathan "Stop Start" Kaplan

 

[smartcooky]

But will it make a difference having a independent referee? Will a independent one pick up on mistakes others did not? If so then what the people are implying that a non independent referee who is a professional and has sworn a oath is actually cheating and breaking that oath because he is blowing according to the laws and not the supporters knowledge of it?

The only difference will be perception.

Anyone who says that referees are this level are biased towards teams of their own nationality is talking through a hole in their arse. This sort of thing simply does not happen at elite level. If there were any bias, it would show up in the Referee Assessments and the masses of statistical data that the SANZAR referee managers collect on their performance.

 

[Cave Dweller]

The only difference will be perception.

Anyone who says that referees are this level are biased towards teams of their own nationality is talking through a hole in their arse. This sort of thing simply does not happen at elite level. If there were any bias, it would show up in the Referee Assessments and the masses of statistical data that the SANZAR referee managers collect on their performance.

+1000000000 Spot on and well said. The decisions you read about in the papers are normally the correct ones and the ones they do get wrong no one picks up. I remember when I was a kid we use to blame the ref as a excuse especially when your mates tease you when their team beat the one you supported. The commentators do not help as well as a lot of times they will question decisions and someone will take that and run with it on the net. Justin Marshall is one of the biggest culprits doing that. Which is strange as a scrummy is one of the players on the pitch that knows the laws like the back of his hand. Weepu is a great example.

 

[smartcooky]

Just looking at the stats

Less than a third of Super Rugby matches this season have had "non-neutral" referees (highlighted in Blue)

[TEXTAREA]SANZAR MERIT PANEL APPOINTMENTS

CRAIG JOUBERT - SAF (6)
Blues v Reds
Brumbies v Rebels
Cheetahs v Bulls
Hurricanes v Crusaders
Stormers v Bulls
Stormers v Waratahs

MARIUS JONKER - SAF (7)
Bulls v Brumbies
Cheetahs v Highlanders
Force v Rebels
Highlanders v Rebels
Rebels v Force
Reds v Chiefs
Stormers v Hurricanes

JACO PEPYER - SAF (7)
Bulls v Crusaders
Force v Hurricanes
Force v Stormers
Highlanders v Crusaders
Hurricanes v Brumbies
Rebels v Crusaders
Waratahs v Reds

MARK LAWRENCE - SAF (6)
Cheetahs v Lions
Hurricanes v Brumbies
Lions v Cheetahs
Sharks v Force
Sharks v Lions
Stormers v Sharks

JON KAPLAN - SAF (8)
Bulls v Reds
Bulls v Sharks
Cheetahs v Chiefs
Cheetahs v Sharks
Lions v Sharks
Sharks v Reds
Waratahs v Crusaders
Waratahs v Rebels

BRYCE LAWRENCE - NZL (8)
Brumbies v Force
Crusaders v Blues
Crusaders v Reds
Highlanders v Blues
Highlanders v Waratahs
Hurricanes v Highlanders
Rebels v Blues
Rebels v Waratahs

CHRIS POLLOCK - NZL(6)
Blues v Crusaders
Brumbies v Waratahs
Crusaders v Stormers
Highlanders v Stormers
Waratahs v Bulls
Waratahs v Sharks

GARRATT WILLIAMSON - NZL (5)
Bulls v Lions
Crusaders v Chiefs
Force v Reds
Rebels v Cheetahs
Sharks v Chiefs

KEITH BROWN - NZL (6)
Brumbies v Cheetahs
Brumbies v Sharks
Chiefs v Blues
Crusaders v Cheetahs
Lions v Brumbies
Reds v Lions

STEVE WALSH - AUS (8)
Stormers v Cheetahs
Sharks v Highlanders
Reds v Stormers
Reds v Brumbies
Lions v Hurricanes
Bulls v Blues
Blues v Sharks
Blues v Hurricanes

SANZAR REFEREES RESERVE PANEL

STUART BERRY â€" SAF (1)
Cheetahs v Force

LOURENS VAN DER MERWE â€" SAF (1)
Brumbies v Highlanders

MIKE FRASER â€" NZL (1)
Chiefs v Waratahs

GLEN JACKSON â€" NZL (6)
Force v Waratahs
Highlanders v Hurricanes
Hurricanes v Sharks
Lions v Sharks
Reds v Force
Stormers v Blues

JONATHON WHITE â€" NZL (4)
Chiefs v Highlanders
Chiefs v Hurricanes
Force v Chiefs
Waratahs v Force

IAN SMITH -AUS (4)
Hurricanes v Cheetahs
Chiefs v Lions
Chiefs v Brumbies
Highlanders v Bulls

ANGUS GARDINER - AUS (2)
Blues v Lions
Reds v Rebels

ANDREW LEES - AUS (1)
Rebels v Bulls

----

TOTALS FOR MERIT PANEL
Total matches..…67
Not neutral…….…19

TOTALS FOR RESERVE PANEL
Total matches……20
Not neutral……….. 7

Overall only 26 out of 87 (30%) matches have non neutral referees
[/TEXTAREA]

 

[Cave Dweller]

I think the people confuse non neutral ref for consistency. Consistency is what everyone wants and non neutral or not it will not solve that issue. Coaches and players want consistency. They do not care if a referee is crap as long he is crap both ways then they are happy. I do not know how long this panel of SANZAR has been running but I do feel such a thing and working as one, no matter the country, will get them to be consistent gradually as time goes on. But it will not happen instantly.