Heineken Cup Semi Final- Saracens v Clermont

[Big Ewis]

Last years Toulon? From memory weren't exactly setting the world on fire, much less so then this years Toulon. Clermont were favorites all season last year and IRC they were expected to blow Toulon away in the final only they choked.

Edit: ah **** sorry about the double post forgot I where I was.

:lol: well then go buy a new memory quick, that post is so unrealistic I feel I'm on a sci-fi forum atm. I feel there's just a little bit of sour grapes here, maybe from Toulon's last win, I'm not sure, I'm still just in speculation mode...
but don't start throwing around absurdities to relieve your conscience - the fact is Toulon was unbelievable last year, absolutely unstoppable (if you've followed their Top 14 and H Cup seasons closely, and know your stuff of course).

Of course you would get the word "choking" out when Castres played an absolutely brilliant game and it couldn't be Castres winning, it must've been Toulon choking.
It couldn't have been that Clermont and Toulon were exhausted from their H Cup campaign and were shaken up by a lethal and galvanized C.O. side that were utterly ready and prepared and stole the show.

And yeah Saffycen, I'm reading up on this article about why Clermont would win this. Never lost to the Sarries in the H Cup, Sarries have never won a 1/2F, etc...

But I think the Saracens have the following advantages:
Clermont, again, are without their captain Rougerie and he does bring a certain order and confidence amongst his ranks.
Then, in the image of England (the side), Owen Farrell is much better than last year and that changes quite a bit for the Saracens at this point of the competition. Nobody is considerably better this year for Clermont, in fact they're not as good as last year collectively.
Also, the Saracens will relish their chances of having made it this far and feel like luck was on their side the whole way and they can't let the opportunity slip. The Ulster game had a surprise intro and outcome, and they're one game away from making the final. They're at home and have enough good players and weapons to instill doubt into this Clermont side the whole match. Psychologically they've got the edge.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Of course you would get the word "choking" out when Castres played an absolutely brilliant game and it couldn't be Castres winning, it must've been Toulon choking.
It couldn't have been that Clermont and Toulon were exhausted from their H Cup campaign and were shaken up by a lethal and galvanized C.O. side that were utterly ready and prepared and stole the show.

I think he was talking about Clermont choking in the HCup, not the top 14 final.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't know what the perception was like in France... but over here I think most people thought Clermont were the best team in Europe quite comfortably last season.

 

[lynam1104]

As Saffycen said I was talking about the Hcup final not the top14, and while Toulon may have been good in the Top14 last year they were pretty dull in the HEC.

 

[Big Ewis]

I don't know what the perception was like in France... but over here I think most people thought Clermont were the best team in Europe quite comfortably last season.

well they were in a way, but on the other hand Toulon were the most consistent. It was a shock when Bordeaux-Bègles annihilated them at home with Camille Lopez playing the game of his life.

As Saffycen said I was talking about the Hcup final not the top14, and while Toulon may have been good in the Top14 last year they were pretty dull in the HEC.

oh my bad. It's obvious even, but I saw "Toulon Final they choked".
I think a case could be made that Clermont choked, but it's not like they played the worst game ever that night. They did score two tries in a row and were on par with the excellence they'd displayed all year long...but then one huge defensive error, Lobbe cleaning up a ruck and unexpectedly passing left, Delon Armitage with his see-you-later gesture that cost him a full season of booing...and it was Toulon with the lead and the Cup.

I don't know if we could say "choking", I really don't...Toulon weren't exactly a harmless school boys' side. They had one more loss only so basically the same regular season record. They smashed everybody at home, smashed a few away too, and I think had the most away wins in the Top 14.

 

[lynam1104]

well they were in a way, but on the other hand Toulon were the most consistent. It was a shock when Bordeaux-Bègles annihilated them at home with Camille Lopez playing the game of his life.



oh my bad. It's obvious even, but I saw "Toulon Final they choked".
I think a case could be made that Clermont choked, but it's not like they played the worst game ever that night. They did score two tries in a row and were on par with the excellence they'd displayed all year long...but then one huge defensive error, Lobbe cleaning up a ruck and unexpectedly passing left, Delon Armitage with his see-you-later gesture that cost him a full season of booing...and it was Toulon with the lead and the Cup.

I don't know if we could say "choking", I really don't...Toulon weren't exactly a harmless school boys' side. They had one more loss only so basically the same regular season record. They smashed everybody at home, smashed a few away too, and I think had the most away wins in the Top 14.

I say they choked because they had the game in their hands and dropped it, then in the last plays they had a chance to snatch back (with a DG) but nobody stepped up the plate. Fair enough Toulon did the work but Clermont were in control.

 

[Big Ewis]

I say they choked because they had the game in their hands and dropped it, then in the last plays they had a chance to snatch back (with a DG) but nobody stepped up the plate. Fair enough Toulon did the work but Clermont were in control.

yeah, not opposed categorically to that, but...a good team losing isn't 100% of the time choking is my point. And again, a turnover from Lobbe and a defensive error from ASM and Toulon were in the lead and never looked back. Toulon played defense like mofos after that obviously, and had they lost in the end from a penalty/drop or try people would say it's Toulon who choked. The world isn't made up of chokers everywhere, every time, every situation

Of course choking DOES exist in sports, not saying it doesn't.

 

[Toby Sweeney]

At twickenham for this one, massive game not sure about our chances though...

 

[Toby Sweeney]

Oh right yeah I agree. We are always in 4th gear looking good against mid table teams, then the big boys come along and we are just too predictable and have no plan B. It happens too often and we need to expand our game, we have been scoring more though, we are semi final reaching specialist.

I think the French teams are a different prospect I think we will win the premiership this year, I do think at our best we beat anyone in the premiership.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think the French teams are a different prospect I think we will win the premiership this year, I do think at our best we beat anyone in the premiership.

If we don't win the league I will be mightily ****** off ! Our problem is that we can't cope with French power and our whole game works on us squeezing the life out of other teams and being quite clinical in attack. The French though are just too big for us, we have signed Vunipola and Johnston but we still get beaten up by them. A lot of credit to our strength and conditioning team though as they are beefing up all our guys, Fraser has gone from 97kg-108kg apparently according to McCall.

 

[Big Ewis]

If we don't win the league I will be mightily ****** off ! Our problem is that we can't cope with French power and our whole game works on us squeezing the life out of other teams and being quite clinical in attack. The French though are just too big for us, we have signed Vunipola and Johnston but we still get beaten up by them. A lot of credit to our strength and conditioning team though as they are beefing up all our guys, Fraser has gone from 97kg-108kg apparently according to McCall.

*Fijian power...

EDIT:
here's the ASM Clermont 23, enjoy:


thought Fritz Lee and Chouly were out, turns out no after all. Excellent. But captain Rougerie just couldn't make it though, and Benson Stanley in his stead.
Fine bench, with in particular Debaty, Pierre, Vosloo and Nakaitaci who can bring some good, valuable second unit punch.
Beautiful team on paper, fantastic coach. They really have no excuse to not perform, I'm not saying they MUST win but at least play at a high level. Very nice team throughout the XV.

 

[TheSaffycen]

*Fijian power...

Picamoles is FIJIAN !!!!!! God you guys just can't stop poaching can you !

EDIT cheers but I already put it in the original post

 

[Toby Sweeney]

If we don't win the league I will be mightily ****** off ! Our problem is that we can't cope with French power and our whole game works on us squeezing the life out of other teams and being quite clinical in attack. The French though are just too big for us, we have signed Vunipola and Johnston but we still get beaten up by them. A lot of credit to our strength and conditioning team though as they are beefing up all our guys, Fraser has gone from 97kg-108kg apparently according to McCall.

Yeah both he and Jackson Wray put on a lot of weight after that humiliating defeat 2 years ago, although to be fair that year we had a lot of injury problems. Strange that we haven't signed anyone this year.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yeah both he and Jackson Wray put on a lot of weight after that humiliating defeat 2 years ago, although to be fair that year we had a lot of injury problems. Strange that we haven't signed anyone this year.

Agreed as we might be losing Joubert and De Kock as well as the others that have gone. Maybe we might be releasing some news at the end of the year.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I still think most clubs have 2-3 more signings still to announce even if they aren't necessarily going to be "stars".

 

[Patchey]

Rats' point about Sarries being set up to win leagues more than knock-out stages was pretty dam mind blowing. Basically articulated everything I think when watching them throughout a season without realising.

Clermont have got enough power to, at worse for them, negate Sarries pack. Whatever you say about playing more expansive rugby these days, its fairly hard to deny that when their forwards aren't stomping the opposition pack into the dirt their backs look distinctly average. Bosch is maybe an exception, and Wyles can sometimes create magic when on the back foot too. However I can't see Clermont being outmatched in either division.

Of course Clermont could have one of their away from home off days I guess.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Clermont have got enough power to, at worse for them, negate Sarries pack. Whatever you say about playing more expansive rugby these days, its fairly hard to deny that when their forwards aren't stomping the opposition pack into the dirt their backs look distinctly average. Bosch is maybe an exception, and Wyles can sometimes create magic when on the back foot too. However I can't see Clermont being outmatched in either division.

The backline we have picked I think is going on the basis that we will have **** all ball. Call Barritt what you want but he is a world class defender and he will bring down anything coming down his channel. Bosch will have a massive role to play is this game, he is a brilliant all round player who can kick 60m penalties(This is why Daly should play for England) and it is such a weapon. Farrell, Bosch and Goode are all players with a great kicking game and I think we are going too try and put the Clermont's lineout under pressure, Nalaga has a great weakness with positional play and I am pretty sure we will target turning him around. Our backline is nothing special but on the bench look at Streather, great step and pace who hasn't got many appearances but has scored tries and looks dangerous, might be a bit above his level but scored lots of tries in the championship.

 

[Amiga500]

It is reckoned that a sin-bin period results in a 7-10 point swing to the team with the extra man during that 10 minute period.

Saracens had a man advantage over Ulster* for ~75 minutes.

They won by 2 points.




*minus Rory Best and with Ruan Pienaar crocked to the point of forcing his departure half way through [and Paddy Jackson hit the post with a penalty].


There is simply no way on this earth I can envisage Saracens beating Clermont unless through some similar fluke.

 

[TheSaffycen]

There is simply no way on this earth I can envisage Saracens beating Clermont unless through some similar fluke.

Hopefully Byrne can also get himself sent off for being a ****ing idiot aswell !

 

[Amiga500]

Hopefully Byrne can also get himself sent off for being a ****ing idiot aswell !

Maybe.

Maybe he'll chase after a high ball and get a red. It'll then bring the total number of people I've ever seen sent off for challenging for a Garryowen to...


Double what it is now.