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Heineken Cup P5: Leinster vs Exeter Chiefs - 13/10/2012
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racingmetrofan
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Its the same old story, no one can credibly say Rabo teams are campaigning on two fronts!
lucky number 7
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Do Racing Metro?
Leinster do...we make many finals domestic and european..
We're class like that.
Probably all the refs we bribe
2007/08
Leinster, Cardiff, Munster, Embra form the top 4 of the CL. Munster, Cardiff and Ospreys are the 3 CL qualifiers for the last 8 of the HEC. Ospreys had a poor season in the CL and might be accused of prioritising; Embra and Leinster got humped by both being put in a group with Toulouse and Leicester. Munster obviously go on to win.
2008/09
Munster, Embra, Leinster, Ospreys form the top 4 of the CL. Cardiff, Munster, Leinster and Ospreys are the 4 CL qualifiers for the last 8 of the HEC. Cardiff, Munster and Leinster are all semi-finalists, while Leinster win. Cardiff might have arguably taken their eye off the ball although they would have requalified if it was top 6 only.
2009/10
Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow, Munster are CL top 4. Munster, Leinster and Ospreys all qualify for HEC last 8. Leinster and Munster lose semi-finals, Ospreys win the CL playoffs.
2010/11
Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys CL top 4. Munster win play-offs. Leinster and Ulster qualify for HEC last 8, Leinster win.
2011/12
Leinster, Ospreys, Munster, Glasgow CL top 4, Ospreys win. Munster, Leinster, Cardiff, Ulster and Embra all qualify for HEC last 8, with Leinster, Ulster and Embra as SF'ists and Leinster winning. Ulster take their eye off the ball slightly and finish 6th in the CL and would have re-qualified. Cardiff and Embra wouldn't have however and Embra unquestionably didn't pay attention to the CL.
So, in general, we see a strong correlation between high league finishes and good HEC campaigns. Only 5 teams have qualified for the HEC last 8 without making the top 4 of the Celtic League, and 3 of those were in last season, which looks like an anomaly. In particular, Munster, Leinster and Ospreys have all routinely achieved good results in both, with Cardiff doing so to a lesser extent and Ulster beginning to patch a strong run in both together.
Therefore, I find it safe to say you are talking out of your arse on the subject of CL teams campaigning on two fronts.
Actually, as a regular CL watcher, I know no such thing. Still, my memory is treacherous beyond my chosen focus, so I decided to look up a sample to see what their team this season looked like compared to their HEC team.
Ospreys team vs Treviso, first match day of the HEC
Fussell6, Dirksen6, Bishop5/1, Beck5, Walker1, Biggar5/1, Fotuali'i4/2; Bevington4/2, Hibbard5, A Jones1/1,AW Jones5/1, Evans5, R Jones2/1, Tipuric3/, Thomas3/2
Dwyer /1, D Jones2/4, Jarvis5/1, Stowers1/3, Lewis2/1, Webb2/4, Morgan1/4, Isaacs4
The number before the / represents the number of starts this season in the Celtic League. The number after represents the number of times named on the bench in the Celtic League. All but one of the starting backline - Eli Walker, who I suspect had an injury - started 4 or more games and was involved in 5 or more. This stat is also true of half the pack. I know Adam Jones had an injury, I don't know what the gig is about with the back row. Duncan Jones, Jarvis, Webb, Morgan and Isaacs on the bench have all been fairly big contributors to the team this season.
So... I'd call that a pretty strong resemblance actually.
Ospreys team vs Treviso, first match day of the HEC
Fussell6, Dirksen6, Bishop5/1, Beck5, Walker1, Biggar5/1, Fotuali'i4/2; Bevington4/2, Hibbard5, A Jones1/1,AW Jones5/1, Evans5, R Jones2/1, Tipuric3/, Thomas3/2
Dwyer /1, D Jones2/4, Jarvis5/1, Stowers1/3, Lewis2/1, Webb2/4, Morgan1/4, Isaacs4
The number before the / represents the number of starts this season in the Celtic League. The number after represents the number of times named on the bench in the Celtic League. All but one of the starting backline - Eli Walker, who I suspect had an injury - started 4 or more games and was involved in 5 or more. This stat is also true of half the pack. I know Adam Jones had an injury, I don't know what the gig is about with the back row. Duncan Jones, Jarvis, Webb, Morgan and Isaacs on the bench have all been fairly big contributors to the team this season.
So... I'd call that a pretty strong resemblance actually.
j'nuh
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Ryan Jones and Justin Tipuric have had injuries. Jonathan Thomas has been in a selection battle with Joe Bearman and George Stowers.
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Peat presents a reasoned and well thought out argument. Only possibly rebuttal = dismiss it out of hand without any material argument.
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Down with your facts and reasoned arguments.
lucky number 7
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What Peat said.
racingmetrofan
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It happens that their efforts to train and recruit to be competitive in Europe has a trickle down effect. It does not mean that they are campaigning hard on two fronts!
racingmetrofan
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Maybe because all their big names that they would customarily rest want off last season and the season before!
Better comparison Leinster 2012 Heinekin Final Team against their 2011-2012 rabopro12 appearances.
R Kearney (7/22), F McFadden (13/22), B O'Driscoll (4/22), G D'Arcy (8/22), I Nacewa (18-22), J Sexton (8/22), E Reddan (12/22); C Healy (8/22), R Strauss (21/22 - 15 starts), M Ross (9/22), L Cullen (capt) (9/22), B Thorn (5/22), K McLaughlin (19/22 - 14 starts), S O'Brien (6/22), J Heaslip (7/22).
Number before / is number of games played, number after / is total number of fixtures.
Source: http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/player/records.html?id=2583;team=267;type=tournament
coonor
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You have to remember that BOD was injured untill April, so his figures obviously look worse. Also remember that the majority of people there are Irish internationals meaning that they missed games due to the World Cup and Six Nations.
Ah, I knew someone would bring up the Irish provinces...
The Irish provinces do not control the amount of gametime they can give to their Irish internationals.
Please everybody get that into their heads now. Because the majority of regular Irish internationals aka the majority of Leinster's first team are on central contracts, the IRFU dictates how many games a season they can play. So the number of regular Irish internationals involved is not a reasonable barometer of the level of their commitment to the Celtic League, because they do not control that.
As it is, out of the guys they could play regularly there - McFadden (I think), Nacewa, Strauss, Cullen, McLaughlin - three of them played heavily and I don't know what the gig with the other two is off hand, although if I remember right McFadden was right on the fringes of the Irish team that year and didn't play much in international windows.
For the main part, you are going to have to accept my word for it that the Irish provinces care about the Celtic League. Maybe not as much as they do about the Heineken Cup, but they do. Let's not forget that Leinster finished top of the league that year with 81 points. They lost the play-off final to a strong Ospreys side, a week after the HEC final. Let's not forget that Ulster effectively demoted their coach the year he got them to a Heineken Cup Final. Why? I strongly believe the horrendous run of results at the start of the Pro12 year when Sir couldn't get a largely second-string Ulster side to fire, costing us any real chance of making the playoffs. Both are important to the World Domination plan, so off he went to work with the kids.
And, f**k it, if you can put 81 points on a league using your second string, you're not going to be too bothered about whether you can use the big guns are you? This is largely because Leinster's second XV is largely HEC quality itself and contains no shortage of guys who've been around international squads - Kearney jr, Fitzgerald, Boss, van der Merwe, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Jennings; that's half the team. Leinster have fantastic depth and use it wisely, which is why they have been routinely smashing it up on two fronts. Put them in any league, and Leinster 2011/12 would still be able to rotate their way to high finishes in both competitions.
And really whose business is it if they rotate heavily? Or if Saracens do, to pick another team with a notable rotation policy? Rotation is by now an accepted part and parcel of elite level sport with attritional playing schedules - or it should be. The question is, why aren't the other HEC contenders rotating? The current league formats are very friendly to rotation, in that a 4th place finish puts you in with a chance of winning in both the CL and Premiership. And in domestic and european competition alike, who's got the freshest and strongest squad at the end often plays a part in who wins.
But hey. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If people want to continue to believe that it's all due to a soft league and that all facts and figures otherwise are to be dismissed out of hand, good luck to them. I await their new explanations for the Irish provinces' strong performances when eventually competitive qualification comes into place, because obviously it isn't built around an exceptional wave of talent that allows them to ride out two competitions in better style than the salary cap English teams in the midst of a national dearth and French teams who seem to crumble at the crucial away games too much, despite all their talent.
The Irish provinces do not control the amount of gametime they can give to their Irish internationals.
Please everybody get that into their heads now. Because the majority of regular Irish internationals aka the majority of Leinster's first team are on central contracts, the IRFU dictates how many games a season they can play. So the number of regular Irish internationals involved is not a reasonable barometer of the level of their commitment to the Celtic League, because they do not control that.
As it is, out of the guys they could play regularly there - McFadden (I think), Nacewa, Strauss, Cullen, McLaughlin - three of them played heavily and I don't know what the gig with the other two is off hand, although if I remember right McFadden was right on the fringes of the Irish team that year and didn't play much in international windows.
For the main part, you are going to have to accept my word for it that the Irish provinces care about the Celtic League. Maybe not as much as they do about the Heineken Cup, but they do. Let's not forget that Leinster finished top of the league that year with 81 points. They lost the play-off final to a strong Ospreys side, a week after the HEC final. Let's not forget that Ulster effectively demoted their coach the year he got them to a Heineken Cup Final. Why? I strongly believe the horrendous run of results at the start of the Pro12 year when Sir couldn't get a largely second-string Ulster side to fire, costing us any real chance of making the playoffs. Both are important to the World Domination plan, so off he went to work with the kids.
And, f**k it, if you can put 81 points on a league using your second string, you're not going to be too bothered about whether you can use the big guns are you? This is largely because Leinster's second XV is largely HEC quality itself and contains no shortage of guys who've been around international squads - Kearney jr, Fitzgerald, Boss, van der Merwe, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Jennings; that's half the team. Leinster have fantastic depth and use it wisely, which is why they have been routinely smashing it up on two fronts. Put them in any league, and Leinster 2011/12 would still be able to rotate their way to high finishes in both competitions.
And really whose business is it if they rotate heavily? Or if Saracens do, to pick another team with a notable rotation policy? Rotation is by now an accepted part and parcel of elite level sport with attritional playing schedules - or it should be. The question is, why aren't the other HEC contenders rotating? The current league formats are very friendly to rotation, in that a 4th place finish puts you in with a chance of winning in both the CL and Premiership. And in domestic and european competition alike, who's got the freshest and strongest squad at the end often plays a part in who wins.
But hey. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. If people want to continue to believe that it's all due to a soft league and that all facts and figures otherwise are to be dismissed out of hand, good luck to them. I await their new explanations for the Irish provinces' strong performances when eventually competitive qualification comes into place, because obviously it isn't built around an exceptional wave of talent that allows them to ride out two competitions in better style than the salary cap English teams in the midst of a national dearth and French teams who seem to crumble at the crucial away games too much, despite all their talent.
Actually, that's massively skewed because of a little thing called the World Cup that took place last year, and had every international unavailable for the first 8/9/10/11 games of the Pro 12 season.
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And also if a team has to use their full strength squad every game to make the top 6 in the Aviva (it's top 6 for qualification, right?) then they shouldn't really be in the HEC anyway.
Edit: *probably won't be able to compete for the trophy anyway
Edit: *probably won't be able to compete for the trophy anyway
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I don't see why people are hating on Leinster. I suppose it's a case of the highest trees catching the most wind. I for one wish the Stormers would stock up on some depth (or rather retain it is more accurate) and use rotation more effectively in what has become a relatively long SH season with SR (18 rounds+3 finals rounds), CC (10 rounds + 2 certain finals rounds) and internationals.
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