Heinekec Cup 2013/14 Pool 3, Round 5 (Toulouse v Saracens, Connacht v Zebre)

[gaston le gaff]

Or because Saracens have a rotation policy, which they do, and have done for a long time.
Hodgson isn't a reject either, as he retired when he was starting/benching every game, when fit.

Rotation policy maybe, but that's home and away games lost to Toulouse maybe time to review their policies as they may not even qualify for the 1/4's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Aristodemus]

Beaten home and away by a team with a budget of 35m Euro isn't a shock, which you are implying with that comment.

 

[munstermuffin]

Rotation policy maybe, but that's home and away games lost to Toulouse maybe time to review their policies as they may not even qualify for the 1/4's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's sport. Toulouse lost at home to a Connacht team who are poor and with a budget that probably equals 1 or 2 players salaries. French teams of all can hardly comment on rotation as they do it in HEC and throw games

 

[gaston le gaff]

That's sport. Toulouse lost at home to a Connacht team who are poor and with a budget that probably equals 1 or 2 players salaries. French teams of all can hardly comment on rotation as they do it in HEC and throw games

They may have lost at home to Connacht but redemmed themselves when playing at Connacht,winning that game with relative ease.
Budgets...........If that is the case about massive budgets, he who has the highest budget wins, which seems a little immature. Why is everyone outside of France always squealing about French budgets, in France the clubs pay the players their worth no more no less, the fact that the salary cap in the UK. is lower than in France is not the fault of the French clubs It is certainly not the fault of Toulouse's that Connacht's budget is small. What you guys have to understand is that the supreme prize in European rugby for the French clubs is the Bouclier de Brennus, this out weighs massively the H Cup, France play in he H Cup because of its interest in playing other British clubs, the financial gain is always taken but is not necessary for survival as most of the TOP 14 clubs can operate without the H Cup. there are only one or two clubs that do not get 10,000 supporters every home match, plus they are heavily backed by partners and sponsors, most of the clubs are able to balance their books well these days. In France is is illegal to be in the red and teams have been relegated for it on occaisons.

 

[Maverick1987]

They may have lost at home to Connacht but redemmed themselves when playing at Connacht,winning that game with relative ease.
Budgets...........If that is the case about massive budgets, he who has the highest budget wins, which seems a little immature. Why is everyone outside of France always squealing about French budgets, in France the clubs pay the players their worth no more no less, the fact that the salary cap in the UK. is lower than in France is not the fault of the French clubs It is certainly not the fault of Toulouse's that Connacht's budget is small. What you guys have to understand is that the supreme prize in European rugby for the French clubs is the Bouclier de Brennus, this out weighs massively the H Cup, France play in he H Cup because of its interest in playing other British clubs, the financial gain is always taken but is not necessary for survival as most of the TOP 14 clubs can operate without the H Cup. there are only one or two clubs that do not get 10,000 supporters every home match, plus they are heavily backed by partners and sponsors, most of the clubs are able to balance their books well these days. In France is is illegal to be in the red and teams have been relegated for it on occaisons.

Mate it's why your country lost 7 games out of 10 last year and had a draw and 2 wins .

You have got to be the most arrogant rugby supporter I've ever heard . Mouthing off about Montpellier going to beat ulster and Leicester and didn't win any of them and all you did was avoided the forum for a few days .

You really will never learn will you ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Budgets certainly mean nothing.
I mean look at the current heineken cup champions - all of their players play for the love of the game, and are paid just above minimum wage.

 

[Maverick1987]

Budgets certainly mean nothing.
I mean look at the current heineken cup champions - all of their players play for the love of the game, and are paid just above minimum wage.

Haha of course and they definitely haven't got a team full of players who have own world cups of at least been in finals ! Racing metro are crap and they have a team full of B&I lions so money doesn't always buy success .

 

[gaston le gaff]

Mate it's why your country lost 7 games out of 10 last year and had a draw and 2 wins .

You have got to be the most arrogant rugby supporter I've ever heard . Mouthing off about Montpellier going to beat ulster and Leicester and didn't win any of them and all you did was avoided the forum for a few days .

You really will never learn will you ?

Thats your best effort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Maverick1987]

Thats your best effort!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha all your doing is cementing what I'm saying . Are you 12 by any chance ?

 

[gaston le gaff]

Haha all your doing is cementing what I'm saying . Are you 12 by any chance ?

Firstly i am not your mate, (is this ha ha another form of disrespect and indisipline.) so supporting a team is now arrogance, and you are asking me my age, nobody is running away after bad results, if you really wanted to know i was visiting my 2 daughters who live in Wilshire after the Leicester game and not hiding from other forumers !!!!!!!!!!!!!! nobody ever mention anything about France winning or losing except yourself, nobody was even talking about France's playing record, just a simple explanation of what happens in French club rugby.
This is a forum where people write their points of view normally within the rules of politness, although you seem to think its mouthing off, but then thats what some people do on forums hide behind a computer screen and remain anonymous, obviously you have not understood anything i have said, so its fairly pointless have a written conversation with someone who uses a forum as a place to vent his or her weakness.
As far as i am concerned this subject is now closed.

 

[Maverick1987]

Firstly i am not your mate, (is this ha ha another form of disrespect and indisipline.) so supporting a team is now arrogance, and you are asking me my age, nobody is running away after bad results, if you really wanted to know i was visiting my 2 daughters who live in Wilshire after the Leicester game and not hiding from other forumers !!!!!!!!!!!!!! nobody ever mention anything about France winning or losing except yourself, nobody was even talking about France's playing record, just a simple explanation of what happens in French club rugby.
This is a forum where people write their points of view normally within the rules of politness, although you seem to think its mouthing off, but then thats what some people do on forums hide behind a computer screen and remain anonymous, obviously you have not understood anything i have said, so its fairly pointless have a written conversation with someone who uses a forum as a place to vent his or her weakness.
As far as i am concerned this subject is now closed.

Enjoying rugby is one thing . Having banter is fun too . Coming on a forum page to rub peoples noses in the fact they lost when they didn't even lose to your team is just silly .

Anyway I'm not that interested hence why I didn't write an essay about it (ahem)

 

[munstermuffin]

France have ridiculous budgets and that's all well and good short term but in long term that money will dry eventually and rich owners will get bored. But the sad thing is short term it's been at cost of the national team. France used to be a really feared nation with world class guys all over and this flair that you could only applaud and watch in awe but now they are mediocre and probably play 1 of worst styles in 6N and just killed progress like there's not 1 world class 10 in France and what's even worst is if any club does well at least 60-70% of the heart is from abroad. People can slate Irish provinces but at least they keep it Irish and even English who have money bring in imports but keep large bulk of squad English too. You buy in talent but at times you can't put price on heart. And well your club Montpellier had talent but no heart what so ever.

 

[gaston le gaff]

What i fail to understand is the wording, ridiculous budgets, something that is the norm in France seems to be totally unaceptable elsewhere. This is not short term at all ask anyone involved in French club rugby like myself. When did Rob Andrew, Trev Brennan play for Toulouse years ago (and there are other foreign players of that era) The weathly owners will be around for a long time and will not get bored as you seem to think, whether right or wrong this is the way of club French rugby its easier to accept than fight as it wil not change for many years to come.
The French team is going through a bad patch i admit but that is more to do with the FFR and their coaching staff, nothing to do with club rugby, yet they still made the last World Cup final. You mentioned 60-70% of the heart is from abroad , you have obviously never heard of the Jiff, which states how many French players who have to be on the club books, this season its 50 / 55% and that is Frenchmen who were with a french club from under the age of 21 and also been in a french clubs formation.
Nobody is slating the Irish, with limited resorces they had always contributed to the game even if it means putting 15 players into a maul, trying to score that all important try. They are the masters at holding the opposition ball up in the maul!!! They put the H Cup first and formost but that is their perogative.
As far as Montpellier are concerned they are a young side with flair who play an excellent type of rugby ( they have only been in the elite 10 seasons) which is very spectacular to watch on most occasions, they have one of the best coaches in the world Fabien Galthie, to say they have no heart is showing you do not know much about the team, other than their 2 poor games against Ulster, i know each individual player as a club official and i can assure you that when they go onto the park they have as much heart as any other player in any other team. Montpellier fielded 7 players from their Academy and formation centre against Ulster on Friday, if you want to read the match report i did go to montpellier-rugby.com and then Steves Chronicles under the column supportrers
Hope that answers most of the points that you made, these are the main reasons why forums work, in most cases people ask questions and answers are provided.

 

[Tony Manx]

What i fail to understand is the wording, ridiculous budgets, something that is the norm in France seems to be totally unaceptable elsewhere. This is not short term at all ask anyone involved in French club rugby like myself. When did Rob Andrew, Trev Brennan play for Toulouse years ago (and there are other foreign players of that era) The weathly owners will be around for a long time and will not get bored as you seem to think, whether right or wrong this is the way of club French rugby its easier to accept than fight as it wil not change for many years to come.
The French team is going through a bad patch i admit but that is more to do with the FFR and their coaching staff, nothing to do with club rugby, yet they still made the last World Cup final. You mentioned 60-70% of the heart is from abroad , you have obviously never heard of the Jiff, which states how many French players who have to be on the club books, this season its 50 / 55% and that is Frenchmen who were with a french club from under the age of 21 and also been in a french clubs formation.
Nobody is slating the Irish, with limited resorces they had always contributed to the game even if it means putting 15 players into a maul, trying to score that all important try. They are the masters at holding the opposition ball up in the maul!!! They put the H Cup first and formost but that is their perogative.
As far as Montpellier are concerned they are a young side with flair who play an excellent type of rugby ( they have only been in the elite 10 seasons) which is very spectacular to watch on most occasions, they have one of the best coaches in the world Fabien Galthie, to say they have no heart is showing you do not know much about the team, other than their 2 poor games against Ulster, i know each individual player as a club official and i can assure you that when they go onto the park they have as much heart as any other player in any other team. Montpellier fielded 7 players from their Academy and formation centre against Ulster on Friday, if you want to read the match report i did go to montpellier-rugby.com and then Steves Chronicles under the column supportrers
Hope that answers most of the points that you made, these are the main reasons why forums work, in most cases people ask questions and answers are provided.

Excellent post and the only point I would add is that clubs like Toulon do not necessarily rely on private backers.....Toulon is now a profitable club in its own right that has increased its turnover by 500% , yes 500%, under Boudjedall and they are reinvesting the profits into players both imported and French qualified under JIFF.

The reason why Toulon can afford the players it has and stil remain profitable is decent management and financial discpline. Nowhere is this exemplified better than the difference between Montpellier and Biarritz where they have similar annual cost budgets of around 17 million but the former is moving forward with some hefty good siginings and the latter is financially challenged and not been able to pay any decent money to attract decent players for a number of years and, hence, inevitable relegation this season and possible extinction.........!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Excellent post and the only point I would add is that clubs like Toulon do not necessarily rely on private backers.....Toulon is now a profitable club in its own right that has increased its turnover by 500% , yes 500%, under Boudjedall and they are reinvesting the profits into players both imported and French qualified under JIFF.

But they did that by buying success, no?

They can afford to pay for these players now, because they had the deep pockets of their benefactor to buy success that has allowed them to generate revenue.
I'm not saying that Boudjellal hasn't put in place good business practices and infrastructure, he wouldn't be as rich as he is without being a good businessman.
But surely you accept that he couldn't have done what he has without the cash to pay for massive upgrades in terms of player quality.

 

[gaston le gaff]

But they did that by buying success, no?

They can afford to pay for these players now, because they had the deep pockets of their benefactor to buy success that has allowed them to generate revenue.
I'm not saying that Boudjellal hasn't put in place good business practices and infrastructure, he wouldn't be as rich as he is without being a good businessman.
But surely you accept that he couldn't have done what he has without the cash to pay for massive upgrades in terms of player quality.

This is probably true but as you well know the sport is now pro and is run as a business, long gone are the days of chummy boards of directors having long lunches and numerous aperitifs when ever they fancy, the bottom line is now money and profibility whether people like it or not.
Montpellier actually made a profit last year and we will again this season, this will be seen more and more, and by lots more clubs in France it is illegal to show loses in France, this can mean automatic relegation this has happened on several occasions. The big problem in the UK it seems to me is attendences, especially in Wales and Scotland, if you have the crowds, the sponsors and partners do come more easily, but it will take hard work from the people involved to make it happen, we are not going backwards, money is and will take a very important role in the game it already has and it will continue for many years to come, but like any business, a basic working capital is needed to get the ball rolling and some excelllent staff and volonteers working in the background with little recognition to continue on the road to success. Easy on paper but can take years to get the formula right.

 

[Big Ewis]

gaston and Tony I agree with you guys. Very good posts.
Ultimately I agree with ratsapprentice though. Money BOUGHT a ***le to Boudjelal and his club, end of story. Sure the players had to actually mesh and play with great chemistry to win, no doubt; because a roster of international names alone won't even get you to the 1/4F if you can't find chemistry as a team; but ultimately it's a question of money buying major talent with a lineup filled with big names and good coaches to manage all that talent, no question. I mean there's no debate to be had here.

One thing I'd like to bring up since we're on the topic is this: as a fairly new fan officially of the sport and its industry, I haven't seen so much talent in France from what I know in a long time.
People are blaming international players and all but France is as deep as ever for most positions. Of course specifically the tighthead position is at peril and surely all those internationals have something to do with it but still, the rest is just blossoming from all over.
We've got our 4 centers picked for les Bleus in Fofana-Fritz-Basta-Fickou, and Lamerat or Yann David, even an old Rougerie or others are just as professional and test-match-ready. We *can't pick* our 9 or 10 not because it's a delicate bleak situation but because we have so many good choices to rethink. Our third row is a similar story, we've got more fullbacks than we should; to be able to make a choice without regrets for a potential other; and wingers are just a comical topic for France. The list of possible selections is just too long and we will always wonder 'what if' by picking just 2 and not the others. Right now though it seems Huget+Guitoune is the best pair...
So the talent in France is more than healthy. I'll stop here because it's not the thread for such a conversation.

 

[munstermuffin]

What i fail to understand is the wording, ridiculous budgets, something that is the norm in France seems to be totally unaceptable elsewhere. This is not short term at all ask anyone involved in French club rugby like myself. When did Rob Andrew, Trev Brennan play for Toulouse years ago (and there are other foreign players of that era) The weathly owners will be around for a long time and will not get bored as you seem to think, whether right or wrong this is the way of club French rugby its easier to accept than fight as it wil not change for many years to come.
The French team is going through a bad patch i admit but that is more to do with the FFR and their coaching staff, nothing to do with club rugby, yet they still made the last World Cup final. You mentioned 60-70% of the heart is from abroad , you have obviously never heard of the Jiff, which states how many French players who have to be on the club books, this season its 50 / 55% and that is Frenchmen who were with a french club from under the age of 21 and also been in a french clubs formation.
Nobody is slating the Irish, with limited resorces they had always contributed to the game even if it means putting 15 players into a maul, trying to score that all important try. They are the masters at holding the opposition ball up in the maul!!! They put the H Cup first and formost but that is their perogative.
As far as Montpellier are concerned they are a young side with flair who play an excellent type of rugby ( they have only been in the elite 10 seasons) which is very spectacular to watch on most occasions, they have one of the best coaches in the world Fabien Galthie, to say they have no heart is showing you do not know much about the team, other than their 2 poor games against Ulster, i know each individual player as a club official and i can assure you that when they go onto the park they have as much heart as any other player in any other team. Montpellier fielded 7 players from their Academy and formation centre against Ulster on Friday, if you want to read the match report i did go to montpellier-rugby.com and then Steves Chronicles under the column supportrers
Hope that answers most of the points that you made, these are the main reasons why forums work, in most cases people ask questions and answers are provided.

You miss my point massively. It's fine for club rugby but it's killing the national team, making the flair of a nation that was set by legends like Blanco die and it's stopping younger French guys be the next generation and when they do get chance the pressure is surreal due to the money at stake and fact owners are trigger happy with cheque books. And there's a difference between being on books and playing. A team with heart but what have they done in Europe? And yes I understand they fielded those players vs Ulster but how many are first teamers. And I not singling out Montpellier but French club rugby as a whole. You say France are bad due to coaches which is partly true but also their handicapped in a way to as there is lesser French guys in pivotal positions

 

[Big Ewis]

munstermuffin you exaggerate quite a bit, but about the point that the Top 14 is killing the French national team I'm not sure. Like I said, the talent is there and well. And France as of late (post 2011 RWC) has only been mediocre/bad because of the following, and nothing else literally:
- calendar too packed: too many matches, and these aren't games of Golf this is Rugby, an extra 7 to 15 more games played than other nations. Humongous difference on our guys' freshness.
- calendar and time together: we've had the least chemistry out of any team you want to pick, Tier 1 or 2, because we just had so little time together.
- coaching: definitely we can do better than Saint-André and though he isn't awful I'm pretty sure it was more the game plan than the players who were at fault. Not too sure about Lagisquet either (our backs' coach).

Voilà.

 

[gaston le gaff]

You miss my point massively. It's fine for club rugby but it's killing the national team, making the flair of a nation that was set by legends like Blanco die and it's stopping younger French guys be the next generation and when they do get chance the pressure is surreal due to the money at stake and fact owners are trigger happy with cheque books. And there's a difference between being on books and playing. A team with heart but what have they done in Europe? And yes I understand they fielded those players vs Ulster but how many are first teamers. And I not singling out Montpellier but French club rugby as a whole. You say France are bad due to coaches which is partly true but also their handicapped in a way to as there is lesser French guys in pivotal positions

Firstly, i'm not missing the point, the talent is there in France or they would not have got to the last WC final, the system in France is by squads there fore you will have a possible 30/35 players all ready for first team choice, obviously some more often than others, the players i mentioned in the previous post are all first team players but when you have 45 and can only put 23 on the team sheet some play more often than others but with injuries etc players get plenty of chances , it is then up top them to show their credibility when selected.
the fact that France has had a bad year i could not agree more, but the talent is plentiful and even with foreigners in abundance, even in key roles the French will be back!! This year could be another learning curve but while the same coaches are in position Frances World rugby challenge will be difficult and restricted.
The Presidents who own these clubs are not trigger happy with their cheques books even if it seems that way to you i can assure that every detail is considered before players join a club well it certainly is at Montpellier, sometimes the choices are hard to understand but they have been thought out carefully and with reason. French flair Blanco and Champagne rugby was great everyone enjoyed it, but its over too much at stake these days, but please dont worry France will be back hopefully sooner than later. As far i am concerned club rugby is everything for me and if France suffer well its tough, but week in week out i watch great players from all over the world playing in France for thieir clubs get to interview many how can you not enjoy that and i as i said France had a bad year but they only just lost the last World Cup Final, nobody else can say that about 2011.