Guinness Pro 12 2014/15: Round 19

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Dragons have gone and done a double on us...

This game brings our winning % in the league to less than 50% and there were no player welfare restrictions this week, MO'C just done ****ed up... Again.

Season ends next week boys, we have less of a chance of making the playoffs than MO'C has of seeing his dick when he looks down.

This squad not making the playoffs is an utter disgrace and I'm praying for MO'C to leave this summer so next season, where we will have a **** of a group in Europe due to our standing, won't be over before it even starts.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'm no fan of the current coach and think there are some mitigating factors but 10 internationals started today with a further three coming off the bench. All you can ask for is that a coach gets the best out of his players. Matt O'Connor isn't doing that.

MO'C and Cullen clearly have a lot to answer for but I think they gave the players the right gameplan for today and it was working until the players execution went too ****. I've no problem with people blaming the coach but a great many of the fans seem to solely lay the blame at one of the coaches feet and not allow for the other mitigating circumstances. There's a certain number of coaches would be getting more out of the players and we should expect a bit more but it's nearly impossible for your players to produce their best when the halfbacks simply aren't up to putting in the consistent performances.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads you can't excuse players here too. It was pathetic at times. Guess that all but seals our spot on top 4

 

[big ginger 8]

Do you honestly believe MO'C is not at fault for our atrocious play this season? We look completely bereft of ideas on the pitch and our defensive systems are not functioning at all

See my reply to Snoopy. But do you honestly believe that MO'C is solely responsible for our performances? That sounds a lot more absurd to me.

This game brings our winning % in the league to less than 50% and there were no player welfare restrictions this week, MO'C just done ****ed up... Again.

How would you have picked the team? We could have and nearly did win this week with this team. The Toulon match is then next Sunday with the Ulster match on Friday. It's a terrible situation to try and pland for but I'd say this was probably the right way to do it, although there are some good arguments for the strong team this week and next I think it would have ended with at least one thrashing.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

MO'C and Cullen clearly have a lot to answer for but I think they gave the players the right gameplan for today and it was working until the players execution went too ****. I've no problem with people blaming the coach but a great many of the fans seem to solely lay the blame at one of the coaches feet and not allow for the other mitigating circumstances. There's a certain number of coaches would be getting more out of the players and we should expect a bit more but it's nearly impossible for your players to produce their best when the halfbacks simply aren't up to putting in the consistent performances.

I agree with much of this especially on today's performance. Leinster mistakes allowed the Dragons back into the game, not coaching errors. O'Connor didn't fall off tackles in his 22, kick the ball dead from a penalty etc but there's been a clear drop in skill levels since he got the job. Some of that can be attributed to the drop in quality at 10,12 and 13 but if Joe Schmidt managed to upskill the passing ability of all of his players no matter their standing, why can't Matt O'Connor.

Some of the comments about O'Connor on Leinsterfans are absolutely despicable though. Criticize his coaching all you like but there's no need to personalize it. Some of the name calling over there is disgusting.

 

[big ginger 8]

I agree with much of this especially on today's performance. Leinster mistakes allowed the Dragons back into the game, not coaching errors. O'Connor didn't fall off tackles in his 22, kick the ball dead from a penalty etc but there's been a clear drop in skill levels since he got the job. Some of that can be attributed to the drop in quality at 10,12 and 13 but if Joe Schmidt managed to upskill the passing ability of all of his players no matter their standing, why can't Matt O'Connor.

Some of the comments about O'Connor on Leinsterfans are absolutely despicable though. Criticize his coaching all you like but there's no need to personalize it. Some of the name calling over there is disgusting.

Agree with all of this.

If we can get someone better than I'd be perfectly fine with MO'C going. I just think people shouldn't be expecting some magic fix once we do get someone new. Next year could well be a lot worse than this one with most of our frontliners missing for at least a third of the yeat.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

MO'C and Cullen clearly have a lot to answer for but I think they gave the players the right gameplan for today and it was working until the players execution went too ****. I've no problem with people blaming the coach but a great many of the fans seem to solely lay the blame at one of the coaches feet and not allow for the other mitigating circumstances. There's a certain number of coaches would be getting more out of the players and we should expect a bit more but it's nearly impossible for your players to produce their best when the halfbacks simply aren't up to putting in the consistent performances.

Professional players fail to execute gameplans when they're not prepared sufficiently, the onus to prepare players is on the coaching staff and no one else. If it was a one off we could consider it a blip but this has been the case for all but 5 (give or take) games under O'Connor. At least last year it was somewhat excusable due to having a good D, this year not so much.

As as for the halfbacks we have two international 9's and the most promising 9 Leinster have ever produced since the sport went pro and a 10 who with the right guidance and opportunity to play 10 as Jimmy Gopperth would have been a considerably better player than Gopps who would have been an adequate back up in international windows so I don't accept that excuse either.

For this group of players to go through a season where their best result is a fluke win over England's 3rd best club is simply not good enough and neither is our, rather flattering, 56% win record which without Italien teams and French relegation candidates becomes 50% on the dot. MO'C should be on the way out the door at the end of this season, any side in Europe with aspirations to win trophies would get rid of a coach throwing up these results.

 

[jcahill1]

Do you honestly believe MO'C is not at fault for our atrocious play this season? We look completely bereft of ideas on the pitch and our defensive systems are not functioning at all

See my reply to Snoopy. But do you honestly believe that MO'C is solely responsible for our performances? That sounds a lot more absurd to me

I'm not denying that players were at fault today, but the fact that the trend spans the whole season is what concerns me. This season whenever the opposition gets into our 22 they look like scoring. Our defensive systems appear to be off, as too often teams are finding easy overlaps and gaps against us, while in attack we often look like we couldn't manufacture a break against ten men. Obviously the players did underperform today and there are other factors but the coaching does not appear to be working.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How would you have picked the team? We could have and nearly did win this week with this team. The Toulon match is then next Sunday with the Ulster match on Friday. It's a terrible situation to try and pland for but I'd say this was probably the right way to do it, although there are some good arguments for the strong team this week and next I think it would have ended with at least one thrashing.

Double standards, MO'C has forever complained about player welfare restrictions and stated last year that he will play his best team week in week out to win rugby matches, both attitudes haven't complimented each other and have been in part responsible for the royal **** up that is the 2014-2015 season.

Aaaaand I'd rather risk a thrashing by chasing trophies full throttle than losing narrowly three weeks in a row trying to punch smart because precedent would suggest that under MO'C Leinster don't do smart and the result will be a miserable final four weeks to a lacklustre season.

 

[big ginger 8]

Double standards, MO'C has forever complained about player welfare restrictions and stated last year that he will play his best team week in week out to win rugby matches, both attitudes haven't complimented each other and have been in part responsible for the royal **** up that is the 2014-2015 season.

Aaaaand I'd rather risk a thrashing by chasing trophies full throttle than losing narrowly three weeks in a row trying to punch smart because precedent would suggest that under MO'C Leinster don't do smart and the result will be a miserable final four weeks to a lacklustre season.

So many lemons...

I don't really have any interest in going over this with you as I think I've made my points clear and we've gone over them enough.

 

[Feicarsinn]

MO'C and Cullen clearly have a lot to answer for but I think they gave the players the right gameplan for today and it was working until the players execution went too ****. I've no problem with people blaming the coach but a great many of the fans seem to solely lay the blame at one of the coaches feet and not allow for the other mitigating circumstances. There's a certain number of coaches would be getting more out of the players and we should expect a bit more but it's nearly impossible for your players to produce their best when the halfbacks simply aren't up to putting in the consistent performances.

Apologist nonsense. The buck stops at the coach. He's taken a squad that on paper should be one of the elite sides in Europe and reduced them to a brainless, unimaginative, and, most damning of all, unmotivated group of individuals who look mediocre against some of the poorest sides in the league. Humbled twice by Munster, scraping a draw against Treviso, two losses against the ****ing Dragons. All of that with an outrageous amount of talent in both the starting team and the reserves. We should be the laughing stock of Europe for what we're doing out there.

The parallels between Manchester United in their David Moyes season and Leinster under MOC are striking. A very talented group of players who probably aren't as good as they once were but still are at a level where they should be competing are being brought down by a coach who is completely out of their depth. The branch needs to start recruiting for a replacement for next season immediately if it hasn't already begun.

Were we spoiled as Leinster fans for the past few years? Yep, absolutely. Does this make the absolute shambles we're seeing out there week in, week out okay? Nope! This is the worst Leinster have been since the Gary Ella days and at least he had a lot less talent at his disposal. This is so painful for a lot of people who genuinely care about the club.

 

[profitius]

MOC is a good bluffer. He talks a good game and the players are quick to stand by him but the standard of play has been brutal. Ye can have Anthony Foley!

 

[big ginger 8]

Apologist nonsense. The buck stops at the coach. He's taken a squad that on paper should be one of the elite sides in Europe and reduced them to a brainless, unimaginative, and, most damning of all, unmotivated group of individuals who look mediocre against some of the poorest sides in the league. Humbled twice by Munster, scraping a draw against Treviso, two losses against the ****ing Dragons. All of that with an outrageous amount of talent in both the starting team and the reserves. We should be the laughing stock of Europe for what we're doing out there.

The parallels between Manchester United in their David Moyes season and Leinster under MOC are striking. A very talented group of players who probably aren't as good as they once were but still are at a level where they should be competing are being brought down by a coach who is completely out of their depth. The branch needs to start recruiting for a replacement for next season immediately if it hasn't already begun.

Were we spoiled as Leinster fans for the past few years? Yep, absolutely. Does this make the absolute shambles we're seeing out there week in, week out okay? Nope! This is the worst Leinster have been since the Gary Ella days and at least he had a lot less talent at his disposal. This is so painful for a lot of people who genuinely care about the club.

So you can talk about the class throughout the team but to mention things like our two world class players playing one game each since September is 'apologist nonsense'? I'm not trying to absolve MO'C of blame just pointing out that he's far from the only thing responsible.

Also if you are trying to imply that I don't genuinely care about the club then...well, we have an issue.

 

[Feicarsinn]

So you can talk about the class throughout the team but to mention things like our two world class players playing one game each since September is 'apologist nonsense'? I'm not trying to absolve MO'C of blame just pointing out that he's far from the only thing responsible.

Also if you are trying to imply that I don't genuinely care about the club then...well, we have an issue.

I wasn't implying that, sorry if it came across that way.

My big issue with Matt O'Connor is this: Leinster have always been a very impressive outfit in the league. You have to go back eleven seasons to find the last time we finished outside of the top three. This success hasn't been built on world class players(although we should be playing better in Europe with them at our disposal), in fact it's been a common criticism of the league that Leinster have managed to do so well by effectively playing second sides, allowing to rest their stars for Europe. Now, with that in mind one of three things must be going on:

1) The league is far more competitive than it has been for the past 10 years.
2) This is the worst crop of Leinster "seconds" for a considerable time.
3) The team is being badly managed.

I don't believe it's either of the first two. While league based European qualification has brought perhaps a bit more edge to the league, the standard of competition is no higher. In the mid to late 00's Leinster had to deal with top class Munster and Ospreys sides who both fancied their chances of European success, while the likes of Scarlets were also able to occasionally make inroads in Europe. Munster are weaker, Ospreys are far weaker, and they seem to have been replaced with a reasonably good Ulster side and a Glasgow side which has yet to prove themselves on the continental stage. As to the ability of the second choice guys, we had far, far worse depth in the mid 00's and still did well. Take a look at some of the benches we put out in European games at that time and that'll be pretty obvious.

That leaves the third option. I've given MOC some slack due to some of the recruitment issues he's faced and there has been injury problems, but we've looked so subpar against side who we're on paper miles ahead of. I can accept dull rugby without complaint. Cheika's sides were boring as sin, but at least they got the job done. I can also accept losing, as long as there are signs that progress is being made and that we're working towards something, be it a new style of play or whatever. I can't accept losing, playing moronic rugby and making no discernible progress in terms of game plan. That's why O'Connor deserves to lose his job.

 

[big ginger 8]

I wasn't implying that, sorry if it came across that way.

My big issue with Matt O'Connor is this: Leinster have always been a very impressive outfit in the league. You have to go back eleven seasons to find the last time we finished outside of the top three. This success hasn't been built on world class players(although we should be playing better in Europe with them at our disposal), in fact it's been a common criticism of the league that Leinster have managed to do so well by effectively playing second sides, allowing to rest their stars for Europe. Now, with that in mind one of three things must be going on:

1) The league is far more competitive than it has been for the past 10 years.
2) This is the worst crop of Leinster "seconds" for a considerable time.
3) The team is being badly managed.

I don't believe it's either of the first two. While league based European qualification has brought perhaps a bit more edge to the league, the standard of competition is no higher. In the mid to late 00's Leinster had to deal with top class Munster and Ospreys sides who both fancied their chances of European success, while the likes of Scarlets were also able to occasionally make inroads in Europe. Munster are weaker, Ospreys are far weaker, and they seem to have been replaced with a reasonably good Ulster side and a Glasgow side which has yet to prove themselves on the continental stage. As to the ability of the second choice guys, we had far, far worse depth in the mid 00's and still did well. Take a look at some of the benches we put out in European games at that time and that'll be pretty obvious.

That leaves the third option. I've given MOC some slack due to some of the recruitment issues he's faced and there has been injury problems, but we've looked so subpar against side who we're on paper miles ahead of. I can accept dull rugby without complaint. Cheika's sides were boring as sin, but at least they got the job done. I can also accept losing, as long as there are signs that progress is being made and that we're working towards something, be it a new style of play or whatever. I can't accept losing, playing moronic rugby and making no discernible progress in terms of game plan. That's why O'Connor deserves to lose his job.

Yeah no bother.

I can see where you're coming from with a lot of your points and agree to a certain extent. I do agree with point three but think that certainly point one and point two to a certain extent are more prominent than you suggest.

However it's mostly schemantics and I have around 1500 words due for tomorrow, so I'll leave it for another time.

I'll just restate my stance that if we can get someone better than I will be quite happy to see him go, I just won't be surprised if it's not exactly a return to our heyday, at least straight away.

I'd say that a lot of fans will be disappointed however. It's quite rare for coaches not to see out their contract and our goals for the season are always European knockout stages and league playoffs. He's acheived one and although very unlikely could acheive the other. He also exceeded them last year and the players repeatedly state how much they're behind him. While there is a certain amount of 'yeah of course they're going to say that' the Ulster players weren't doing it for Anscombe. Either way I'm quite pessimistic for next year. The World Cup is going to be hugely detrimental to our season.

 

[Peat]

Now would probably be the absolute worst time to replace MOC. The new coach wouldn't meet half their squad until two months in or so, a lot of good coaches are tied down, and you're spending money on a season that's banjaxed anyway. Far better imo to give him a shot at redemption and start looking for a seriously good option post WC.

I am mildly bemused by how a squad with a gaping black hole in the half-backs should be one of the elite in Europe. Gods knows there's plenty of talent in Leinster and that you don't have to be that good to do well in the Pro 12, but it does seem a pretty major issue to have.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Two seasons ago Ian Madigan was the best 10 in the Pro 12. There isn't a gaping hole at 10, and the 9's are still serviceable.

I don't see how giving MOC another season is better than the alternative. That'd make sense if we were making strides in any area of our game. But we're not. Do you genuinely believe that another season with him is the best thing for Leinster? Because that just seems nuts to me. How would that be preferable to giving someone like Girvan Dempsey the side for a season?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I am mildly bemused by how a squad with a gaping black hole in the half-backs should be one of the elite in Europe. Gods knows there's plenty of talent in Leinster and that you don't have to be that good to do well in the Pro 12, but it does seem a pretty major issue to have.

Two international 9's and one with the potential to be one in the future was what MO'C was given. He was also given a 10 with bags of potential and a journeyman who can do a job at pro 12 level, his insistence to pick the never improving journeyman is the reason for the "gaping black hole" in the halfbacks so he should not be cut any slack for the lack of ability here.

 

[Feicarsinn]

In fact, Dempsey would be an excellent appointment, for this season at least. He knows all of the players, particularly those who will be available during the WC, he has a very good track record with the A's and he seems to want to play nice rugby. His appointment wouldn't be a sure thing, but it'd be better than what we're seeing at the moment.

 

[Peat]

:lol: Well I suppose I shouldn't be surprised - and you shouldn't be surprised that I continue to disagree.

Boss was never that great and age hasn't improved him, while Reddan's ability seems to be nosediving off a cliff. The fact they're internationals is neither here nor there. Neither's McGrath's potential - right now, he reminds me of a raw Tomas O'Leary. Madigan is dangerous as all hell with a strong platform but mainly gets it wrong when he doesn't. And Gopperth is a journeymen, which is never going to be good enough for a side with Leinster's ambitions. Yeah, for a team expecting to win things, it's pretty brutal.

Tbh, all of this reminds me of the Ulster situation. First there was a lot of animus against Anscombe, who had us threatening to perform but failing at the end. So we sacked him - then realised we were in a massive hole and had to ask Daddy D4 to dig us out. That ended in a palaver in which we appointed promising local coach Neil Doak to replace him... and people have spent the better part of a season tearing him to pieces. Oddly enough, that's all quietened down now we've got players like Henderson and Jackson back and are winning games again. But Doak didn't magically become a better coach - and Anscombe didn't magically become a bad coach. The simple truth was when they had their best available, they kicked ass, and when they didn't, it all went a little Pete Tong. Because the Ulster squad simply isn't as strong as some liked to credit it.

And from where I'm sat, it's the same with you. There's no doubt you could get a better coach than MOC. But he's not dealing with a supremely strong squad here. There would be challenges to be faced. And, honestly, it's probably not worth the upheaval and pay-off money to send him a season early. Dempsey avoids the upheaval, but the right thing by Dempsey is not sticking him for a caretaker role before he's ready. The only reason I don't think Ulster made a mistake there with Anscombe were the heavy and persistent rumours from reliable sources that he bullied the kids. That's worth gritting your teeth over. Being a bit boring and being slightly haphazard about hitting the targets? Feh.

Still, go ahead and campaign for his sacking, no skin off of my nose.