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GOAT - The eternal debate

Goat has to be by position otherwise the metric is useless and stupid. Trying to compare a prop and a fly half is stupid as it's impossible.

Then comparing eras is subjective to people who favour certain eras etc.

why can't we discuss the greatest tight head of all time as that would be much more Interesting.
 
Absolutely not.
The counterargument is quite clear in football.
Albiol has a FIFA world cup and two eurocups under his belt. Neymar has no world cup and no copa america. Are we to conclude that Albiol is better than Neymar?
Was Capdevilla (WC and Euro) better than Zlatan?
Was Paulo Sergio (WC, CL, Intercontinental, etc) better than Laudrup? Or Dennis Bergkamp?
Are we to judge Mat Le Tissier poorly just because we wanted to play for Southampton?
I dont think so.

Magnus Carlsen was asked about Messi before 2022 (i.e. before Messi winning the WC) and when the reporter asked him about Messi not having a WC trophy in his shelf Magnus replied (i am paraphrasing): 'should i judge Messi differently because Higuain missed a clear chance on 2014's final? Why are we putting that on him? Why should we judge a player differently if his actions would have been (supposedly) the same."
I think he has a strong argument.

Personally I like to judge players based on what they do with the resources available in their team. If player X is surrounded by top talent i will judge him differently that if he is surrounded by plebs. I try to apply the same criteria to the competition they face.

Judging individual players in a team sport is more and artform than a science.
Is Neymar a better defender than Albiol? Was Zlatan a better left back than Capdevilla. Like this rugby debate, i think positions, roles make a difference. It's like comparing Moore with Pele.

My point was how do you narrow the debate. As i said I'm not sure you can. Discount points scored, tries scored, achievements etc the field gets wider. In an already nearly impossible task.

Could it be argued in theory the Bedford Blues number 9 from 1983 was the GOAT. Just played for a poor team, didn't win much or get the recognition they deserved.
 
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I think rugby is among the worst sports to have a GOAT debate. I'm very close to bringing career points into this conversation. Presume it'd be dismissed but surely the fact that DC has scored multiple thousands of points is noteworthy over Dupont!

I think goat conversations in any sport are only enjoyable if you understand they are for conversation purposes and really just a way to celebrate greatness.

That being said, I haven't seen Dan Carter jackal but I've seen DuPont drop kick.
 
Goat has to be by position otherwise the metric is useless and stupid. Trying to compare a prop and a fly half is stupid as it's impossible.

Then comparing eras is subjective to people who favour certain eras etc.

why can't we discuss the greatest tight head of all time as that would be much more Interesting.
This whole comment makes me sick.
 
Is Neymar a better defender than Albiol? Was Zlatan a better left back than Capdevilla.
That's a bit of a twist on the original question. A better footballer would be, in layman terms, who would you pick first if you to build a team, your life depended on it, and you could only pick one at a time.
Think of two kids picking teams in a playground. This is obviously non scientific but it works and has worked for centuries across the globe. There is a pecking order, everyone involved more or less agrees with it and acts accordingly. You dont need any guy with an excel sheet looking up stats for you nor checking out any players' trophy count. It is in your best interest to learn that pecking order and to learn it fast.

I do agree that rugby is trickier, way trickier. Specialization is quite important in rugby. Push comes to shuv Dani Alves could play in any position. Nearly all positions share a certain skill set that is quite broad. Not so much in rugby. If you put Marler as a SH, FH or as a winger you'd be giving the opposition a huge advantage. That level of specialization makes comparisons more difficult.

It's like comparing Moore with Pele.
Really?


My point was how do you narrow the debate. As i said I'm not sure you can.
Strictly speaking probably not, but you can by proxy, at least sometimes. You can, say, talk to people who have played with both, against both, coached both, coached teams against both. People who've reffed them.
And we have eyes too. I understand there a tons of grey areas. Actually most of it is grey. But there are white and black spots here and there.
 
That's a bit of a twist on the original question. A better footballer would be, in layman terms, who would you pick first if you to build a team, your life depended on it, and you could only pick one at a time.
Think of two kids picking teams in a playground. This is obviously non scientific but it works and has worked for centuries across the globe. There is a pecking order, everyone involved more or less agrees with it and acts accordingly. You dont need any guy with an excel sheet looking up stats for you nor checking out any players' trophy count. It is in your best interest to learn that pecking order and to learn it fast.

I do agree that rugby is trickier, way trickier. Specialization is quite important in rugby. Push comes to shuv Dani Alves could play in any position. Nearly all positions share a certain skill set that is quite broad. Not so much in rugby. If you put Marler as a SH, FH or as a winger you'd be giving the opposition a huge advantage. That level of specialization makes comparisons more difficult.


Really?



Strictly speaking probably not, but you can by proxy, at least sometimes. You can, say, talk to people who have played with both, against both, coached both, coached teams against both. People who've reffed them.
And we have eyes too. I understand there a tons of grey areas. Actually most of it is grey. But there are white and black spots here and there.
Clearly it's Moore. Only on the basis I'm Whufc fan and Moore didn't do adverts for erectile disfunction.
 
Clearly it's Moore. Only on the basis I'm Whufc fan and Moore didn't do adverts for erectile disfunction.
Didn't know Pele did that. Maybe he had experience in that area.

Defenders and goalies are generally underrated in football and other sports like hockey that have those positions.

My pick for best defender of all time is Maldini, a right footed centre back who became the best left back of all time.

Moore is definitely up there as one of the greats though, not just defenders but footballers. He's a counter example to people who think it was "easy" to score goals against "old timey" defenders.
 
Didn't know Pele did that. Maybe he had experience in that area.

Defenders and goalies are generally underrated in football and other sports like hockey that have those positions.

My pick for best defender of all time is Maldini, a right footed centre back who became the best left back of all time.

Moore is definitely up there as one of the greats though, not just defenders but footballers. He's a counter example to people who think it was "easy" to score goals against "old timey" defenders.
Ice Hockey goalies are legends of the sport.
 
My 2c on the thread topic.

OP's definition of sportsman is good. Keeps us in a domain where skill and physicality are both important.

The way I personally rate footballers in an all time context, skill and football intelligence are the most important factors, and Portuguese Ronaldo is one of the most overrated due to recency bias and an inflated comparison with Messi, who is just miles ahead as a footballer. Pele and Maradona are the only ones who compete with his dominance in their respective eras as footballers (honourable mention for Cruyff who is comfortably the most intelligent footballer of all time). Ronaldo's "mentality" is overrated too but I'll stop there before this turns into a rant about him. Pele probably wins the football debate for me but I'm actually undecided because of how good Messi and Maradona were.

I digress on football to show how hard it is just to pick the GOAT in a particular sport. Comparing across sports is then even harder, near impossible. If you forced me to choose, it would have to be Gretzky. He dominated his sport in a way very few did. Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr ran him close in terms of overall brilliance as hockey players.

OP picks Bradman, interesting choice. Best batsman of all time without doubt, but all rounders in cricket deserve huge consideration because they do both of the things. Imran Khan and Garfield Sobers being standouts who could bat and bowl at elite levels. Sobers would have had the time of his life playing T20 cricket.

For the sport of the forum, Dupont being mentioned at all shows the effect recency bias can have. He's done some amazing things but come on, his career is far from over, a lot can still happen. He could theoretically win two World Cups and totally live up to the hype or his career could fizzle out and he'd be remembered in a very different light. (Also, a 15s player going down and smashing it in 7s isn't actually that impressive; 7s is the easier code).
 
I have a sneaky suspicion that I'll have been fully swung to Tiger Woods in this debate within 12 - 24 months when Scheffler and Schauffele have only added one major max between them.

Guys getting near his level recently and not being able to sustain it with far more training aids is making me realise he was God like.
 
"Greatest of all time in this specific era in this particular sport at that particular position" is how the media treats it

Wasn't aware of that. I still think it's highly subjective e.g. I am still not sure who is the greatest between Federer, Novak and Nadal who all played in the same era. Who decides the criteria? Is it number of grand slams or number of grand slams + masters + Olympic ***les? I'm in the camp of not taking it too seriously and for it being a fun discussion/celebration of people's greatness with often no right answer.
 
Wasn't aware of that. I still think it's highly subjective e.g. I am still not sure who is the greatest between Federer, Novak and Nadal who all played in the same era. Who decides the criteria? Is it number of grand slams or number of grand slams + masters + olympic medals? I'm in the camp of not taking it too seriously and for it being a fun discussion/celebration of people's greatness.
Oh so you are sane human being
 
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