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Get your bets in for the All Black Squad for the june tests

I don't know about comparing Kaino against other 6's around the world but over the last couple of years Kaino has often been the best All Black in the team and was arguably NZ's best player last year overall though he didn't have a fantastic RWC final. Being one of the best players week to week in the best team in the world says something. He's going to be missed.

Vito has great potential but he hasn't looked settled at test level yet. He was mind blowing in the ITM cup last year and forced his way into the AB's and hardly fired a shot when he got his chance covering for injured Kieran Read.

The frustrating thing for me is that out of Vito, Thomson and Messam. Thomson has been the one to get the most chances and i think the other two deserved those chances more. It takes time to settle to test rugby, if they all only get to play bit roles in the side them maybe none of them will settle. Now Thomson will prob be first in line to step up for Kaino and he's the oldest and least physical of the three.

Kaino has definitely been in the top 3 at least for 6's in the last three years.

It's crazy how good Thompson can seem at Super Rugby but he is N.Z.'s fourth best 6. Messam is one unlucky guy.
 
The squad will be further reduced to 30 before the Irish test matches.Vito was used as a openside in the WC but that was a stop gap and they will not use him there again. Not when they are going up against Heaslip and Ferris. Vito is a combination of Jerry Collins, Chris Mascoe & Rodney S all roll into one, with plenty of Tana's leadership qualities he is still young, but a few more years at top level he will be a classic No.8
 
I reckon some of my NZ brethren are overrating Vito a bit. If he played for England I'm positive you wouldn't be rating him as highly. He is a poor man's version of Kaino if we are being fair. Smaller, defence not as strong and not as good at carrying. Probably the only thing he has going is that is he is faster. He wasn't that good in ITM cup last year, no Wellington players were they almost came last if not for a woeful Southland team.
 
I could harp on for Hours about Adam Thomson lol

no doubt the guy has skill and ability but what role does he fit into?

In my view he is far from what a traditional 6 offers. He Takes an absurd amount of line out ball and he's brilliant at it but it distracts from his core role as a flanker. He's great out wide and can finish tries like a winger but same again who's doing his work at the breakdowns? He will run around and top the tackle count on defense but he's not really physical enough to help his team win the battle on the advantage line like a traditional 6. When he does focus on the breakdown he has at times won a lot of turnovers but he also gives away a ton of penalties, needless penalties and he's cost the All Blacks test matches - heck I would go as far as to say he cost NZ the 2011 tri nations.

He's very unique, and what he does for the highlanders is critical and yes pretty damn special and Jamie Joseph has got it right because what he does is basically have extra loose forward(s) (like Croswell) playing lock that do the lose forward key roles allowing Thomson to work the lineouts and run around out wide and it works.

But how do you fit him in with the All Blacks? For test rugby you need two world class locks you can't toss one out for an extra lose forward and you can't have your blindside flanker tied up at all the lineouts. When Thomson goes into the All Blacks and is asked to play a traditional loose forward role it just doesn't work because he's not physical enough to win the advantage line battle around the rucks, he can't work the breakdown when hes out on the wing hunting for tries in tight games he's leaking points to the opposition. heck last year the AB's put #8 on his back but on attacking scrums he was on the blindside and on defending scrums he was at the back - basically protecting him from the key roles of both positions and it was a fricken mess.
 
Adam Thomson like Pierre Spies. Good at Super Rugby level, struggle at international level.
 
I reckon some of my NZ brethren are overrating Vito a bit. If he played for England I'm positive you wouldn't be rating him as highly. He is a poor man's version of Kaino if we are being fair. Smaller, defence not as strong and not as good at carrying. Probably the only thing he has going is that is he is faster. He wasn't that good in ITM cup last year, no Wellington players were they almost came last if not for a woeful Southland team.

I think Vito is a bit overrated yes, heck they built a statue of him in wellington and the reality is he hasn't delivered on his potential yet and become an established All Black and he's no longer a kid either at 25 so hes not going to go on and become an AB great with a 15 year test carrier like some predicted (like Owen Franks, Read, Sam Whitelock have started and like what Brodie Retalick may be just about to start. IMO he clearly wont because his best position is #8 and he could spend his carrier stuck behind Kieran Read. Who's about the same age and already is an established AB with about 35 caps.

Here we are talking him down when he is still a class act, and would walk into most test sides. Just seems in NZ rugby we had had this group of super talented 6/8's over the last 4 years and most of them haven't had a fair shot simply because there is so much talent and they have kinda all been given a half shot. That group includes: Kaino, Read, Messam, Thomson, Vito basically 5 class players trying to fill two positions.
 
I remember when Vito was being lauded as the next Jonah Lomu.
 
I remember when Vito was being lauded as the next Jonah Lomu.

The next year Declan O'Donnell was being called the 'next Cullen'.. You realise it isn't the NZ fans who say these stupid things it's the media who get carried away, basically the media lose their sh*t when someone has an awesome 7's tournament in Wellington.
 
I remember when Vito was being lauded as the next Jonah Lomu.

The next year Declan O'Donnell was being called the 'next Cullen'.. You realise it isn't the NZ fans who say these stupid things it's the media who get carried away, basically the media lose their sh*t when someone has an awesome 7's tournament in Wellington.

Its carried away. I take one look at theses so called 'next Lomus and Cullens' and they dont run like them at all.

O'Donnell is the next O'Donnell, Vito is the next Vito and so on...
 
And here we wonder why there is 7 specialists. Cause they suck in 15...... Ok not all but a two step, a jink then clear for a 60m try do not work in the 15 game so easily.
 
Its carried away. I take one look at theses so called 'next Lomus and Cullens' and they dont run like them at all.

O'Donnell is the next O'Donnell, Vito is the next Vito and so on...

Yep. Julian Savea and Andre Taylor have both been called 'the next Lomu/Cullen'. It's frustrating because it's a huge amount of hype to put on a player, based off a very generalised playing style.
 
The next year Declan O'Donnell was being called the 'next Cullen'.. You realise it isn't the NZ fans who say these stupid things it's the media who get carried away, basically the media lose their sh*t when someone has an awesome 7's tournament in Wellington.

I wonder what O'Donnell's test career would have been like if he had moved to Leinster or Munster instead of playing for NZ 7's. Although he probably wouldn't have been noticed though because he was practically a no name before the Wellington tournament.
 
Yep. Julian Savea and Andre Taylor have both been called 'the next Lomu/Cullen'. It's frustrating because it's a huge amount of hype to put on a player, based off a very generalised playing style.

I'd say Taylor is the next Jane. He's solid under the high ball, runs good lines, not that quick and solid in defence.
 
I'd say Taylor is the next Jane. He's solid under the high ball, runs good lines, not that quick and solid in defence.

He has similarities, but I think for a fullback he is pretty quick. His best attribute seems to be changing angles without losing pace, it just seems to throw the opposition off.
 
He has similarities, but I think for a fullback he is pretty quick. His best attribute seems to be changing angles without losing pace, it just seems to throw the opposition off.

True but i remember hearing an interview with him last year saying pace was his major weakness. So the Cullen comparisons were way off the mark!
 
True but i remember hearing an interview with him last year saying pace was his major weakness. So the Cullen comparisons were way off the mark!
I've not heard that one, but he's played most of his rugby on the wing. Don't know of any fullback who'd I say was quicker in New Zealand to be honest (not saying there aren't any, just can't think of any off the top of my head)

Good highlights video of him so far -

 
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Right, I will give my thoughts on the squad, even though I'm far too late!

Though the squad seemed full of surprises when you look at it in isolation (with Shields, Luke Whitelock etc), when you hear Hansen and co. talk about the reason certain players are in the squad there aren't really that many surprises at all.

Props: No surprises big here other than the fact they picked 6 props (but that sounds like it was due to the injury to Faumuina). It sounds like they will pick 5 props in their 30-man squad, so all the fit props should be included in that squad. I'd imagine Ben May and Toby Smith would have pushed Tameifuna for the 6th prop position, but I'd imagine Toby Smiths injury and the fact he hasn't had that much experience at tight-head prop at Super Rugby level would have counted against him.

Hookers: Again no surprises other than the number of hookers they picked (2). This suggests to me that Cory Flynn is still their third choice hooker, and he has been playing well. I do agree with others that they need to get a younger hooker involved (I prefer Elliot over Coles), but both Elliot and Coles really need to start to display some consistency at Super Rugby level.

Locks: Probably the biggest surprise in the training squad, though largely ignored by the public, is the inclusion of Luke Romano. Given the AB's will likely take 4 locks in their 30-man squad Romano will be included, and could well get a taste of test rugby should one of Williams, Retallick, Whitelock be injured/rested. I understand the inclusion of Romano - he is a genuine tight-head lock, and is probably the strongest ball running lock in the country. I'm not surprised to see Williams selected - there is no doubt that he has been poor this year, but he is still a very good aerial lock and is known as a pretty strong scrummager (he scrummages on the tight-head side for the Blues). Personally I wouldn't have picked him, but I can understand why he was picked. Whitelock was an obvious pick, as was Retallick, who is playing the best rugby of any lock in the country despite being in his first Super Rugby season.

Personally I would have picked Josh Bekhuis, who has been solid for the last few years for the Highlanders, and has improved his running game over recent years. Hoeata would be another option, but I still think he has serious discipline issues. I do like Clarke as he gives 100% every week, but I do wonder whether he has what it takes to step up to the next level. Eaton has really impressed me this year, but there isn't really a shortage of loosehead locks, while Broadhurst looks good at times too, but needs more starts at Super rugby level. I've been really disappointed in Liaki Moli, who I used to really rate, but his handling has been shocking this season. I wouldn't even consider Donnelly - there is a good reason why he is stuck behind Romano at the Crusaders - his work-rate is atrocious. He may be a very good aerial lock and make few errors, but he never runs with the ball, and does little to no work at the breakdown.

Loosies: Ignoring the inclusion of Shields and Luke Whitelock (who are obviously just there for experience) there is only one surprise inclusion in the loosies - Sam Cane. Given they will take 5 loosies in their 30-man squad it looks like Cane will be their to back-up McCaw (unless they back-track on a specialist 7 and bring in Messam). Though I like the fact that they have included a specialist 7, I wonder whether he is the right choice - I would have preferred Luke Braid or Matt Todd (in that order). While I do see the logic in selecting Cane - in a year or twos time he probably will be a better player Braid or Todd, but at the moment he still has plenty of room for improvement. I think Luke Braid is very under-rated - his game is very similar to McCaw's in many ways: he is ever improving his work at the breakdown, offers strong support play, and is a very strong runner with ball in hand. He has been almost the sole bright spot for the Blues over the later half of the season. I have to say I've been impressed with Latimer this season - I wouldn't put him in the AB's, but I had (wrongly) written him off before the season started, and likewise was impressed with Hardie for the Highlanders (before injury).

I do feel a bit sorry for Liam Messam, but I understand his exclusion. He continues to play at a high level for the Chiefs, but I feel the AB's selectors have largely written him off at test level, so he will require an injury to one of Read, Thomson, Vito or McCaw to get back into the squad. It will be interesting to see who the selectors pick at 6 - I'd personally go for Vito, as he has the attributes to in some ways replicate the game that Kaino brought (though it would be very difficult to replicate Kaino!), however I expect the selectors may favour Thomson. If they do pick Thomson they will have to change what they want out of their 6 - Thomson has some very unique skills, and if they pick him they will need to use him in a role to fully use these skills - if they want him to perform the 'Kaino role' they are going to be in trouble!

Halfbacks: I personally won't have picked Weepu, and I imagine he will be under a lot of pressure to perform. Not surprised to see Aaron Smith picked. Whenever I've previously mentioned he is the best passing halfback in the country people always seem to have objected to that statement - are their any objections now? Ellis has played well (and deserves to be the starting AB's 9). Kerr-Barlows' inclusion is interesting - I assume it was just to give him some experience in the AB's environment, as though he is ridiculously talented, he is still very error prone. Even though he is very young Perenara probably deserves to be in the squad (I'd take him as my third halfback) but I understand why he wasn't included. Leonard has played well this year too, but I still think he is too messy at the base of the breakdown, while I've been a bit disappointed in Mathewson this season (who I really used to rate), as he seems to have lost a bit of his spark.

First-fives: The three obvious choices, though Barrett may not be included in the final 30 if they choice to pick Weepu. Cruden has been in phenomenal form this season, and it amazes me that the media/general public haven't seemed to realize this. We have been waiting for years to find a genuine back-up to Carter, and one has finally arrived - there should be cheers of celebration! Barrett looks like Cruden did in his first Super Rugby season - he has got a great running game and can set the backline going well, but he has some flaws (very weak defense, kicking in general play / at goal). I can't really understand all the love for Tom Taylor - he has looked pretty composed in (basically) his first season of Super Rugby, has goal-kicked very well, but his general play is very average. When he has played at 10 for the Crusaders he has simply shoveled the ball on to Carter and really created no space what-so-ever in the backline - it was really no surprise that Crusaders struggled to score tries with him at 10 (and suddenly discovered how to score them again when Carter moved back to 10). I'm not saying he's a bad player, just that he is no-where near ready for the AB's at this stage of his career.

Mid-field: Easy selections here. Ellison looks like he will be included in the 30-man squad do the injury to Kahui, and fully deserves his inclusion. No surprise that Fruean didn't make the cut again - he can still destroy opposition teams, but goes missing far too often, and is still a liability in defense.

Outside backs: Slightly surprised with the inclusion of Savea - he's been playing well, but he isn't the type of wing that the AB's have been selecting in recent years. Looks like he will start on the left wing against Ireland too. It will be great to see Ben Smith get some starts for the AB's to show what he has got at the next level - I'd prefer if he was at fullback as his skill-set is better suited to that position, but he could still be an asset for the AB's on the wing. He may lack express pace (but he would be no slower than Cory Jane), but does have the ability to put himself into gaps, reads the game very well, sets up others, and has a phenomenal work-rate. Interesting to see Guildford get a reprieve due to the injuries to Kahui/Jane - he does have some skills that could potential make him an outstanding international wing, he just needs to continue to improve his back skill level / ability to handle pressure.

I feel Andre Taylor was a bit unlucky to be excluded, but he or Gear could be called up to the squad. What has impressed me about Taylor this year (apart from his obvious skills with ball in hand) has been his defensive play. He has barely missed a tackle, and seems to be putting himself in the right positions. He really needs to improved his work-rate though, and learn to contribute a bit more in 'tighter' games. As a Highlanders supporter I've been reasonably happy with Gear this season. His work-rate has impressed me (something I usually criticize him for), but he hasn't really been that effective with ball in hand. He usually make it to (or past) the advantage line, but he hasn't really been backing himself to beat players - once he starts doing that he is far more effective. I've been disappointed that Wulf has been injured for so much of the season as he was one of the few Blues backs to show any form at the start if the season (not saying I would have picked him, just he may have been another option if he had continued that form).
 
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Some strange **** going on both teams have now lost their best 6, 11 and 14.
 
Good read Darwin, agree with pretty much all of that. Gear and Elliot have been called in to the squad also.
 
Good read Darwin, agree with pretty much all of that. Gear and Elliot have been called in to the squad also.

Just saw that myself. Glad to see Elliot has been included instead of Flynn, and it looks like Gear's decision to re-sign with the NZRFU may have given him another shot at the AB's this year (and those two tries vs the Blues would have helped too!).
 
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