German Rugby

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Agree it's poor logic to question why a sport ain't popular in a country when the neighbours play it. Even within countries there are sports played in certain areas that have little or no popularity...England; RL (north), RU (south)....in Ireland there is a sport called hurling...popular in about 4 counties out of 32. Being from Tyrone, I still have chills when we played it briefly for PE at school...lottery ball. Flick up the sloithar (ball) and whack the thing as hard as you can.

ahh yes the hurling game in scotland its called Shinty love watching it though and its ireland hurling vs scotland shinty

 

[germanbullsfan]

So for all of you , which are wondering why Rugby never made the cut in Germany , here is the true story!

Rugby and Soccer both appeared in Germany in the 1850-1860s with a slight time advantage for Rugby ! Due to the federalistic System in the german Bund that time everbody did his thing his way , relativly unorganised.
Politically the system prefered "Turnen" as the favorite sport in the country, the were sceptically about the english sports , but yet allowed them to grow. And now a brilliant marketing idea comes in to play! Because the soccer Community were a little bit behind in time compared to Rugby , they could avoid the mistakes Rugby did , like directly forming a unified League with a structure and knowing the problem of the english sport they started promoting Soccer as the german game!!! with such a great sucess that the older Rugby because it was relativly setteled and popular in England and France got the stigmata of the enemys ! Plus even there were tests to implement Rugby as the official Armysport like in France the chances were gone, and Soccer as the adopted German Game started his triumpf through the german sportsworld.

Ironiclly the german goverment from 33-45 had plans for the sport of Rugby to make it the official armed Forcesport and Sport for the masses after the war!

 

[Da Grappla]

As in Spain, big guys in Germany choose handball. Even a more accentuated trend in Germany due to the ****ing harsh winters

 

[Jaguares]

Just because a sport isnt a professional in a country it doesnt mean it cant be popular. American Football players here arent pros and yet the UK is the NFL's 2nd biggest market. Dont forget rugby only went pro here less than 20 years ago

Yeah, but I said TRADITION too. Rugby in Argentina isn't professional but we have TRADITION. Here, many clubs were founded in the nineteenth century, so we have more than 100 years of tradition. Now, we have a professional rugby team in Argentina (Pampas XV or Argentina A). They are our best players who haven't won a contract to play professionally in Europe or are too young to get a professional contract overseas.

Whatever, How many years has american football in Germany? As if to say it's a big sport there.

 

[germanbullsfan]

the winter is the least problem beleave me
!

Rugby has a long tradition in Germany ! Here in Stuttgart we play it since 1860!!!


Our local Bundesliga Club the VfB Stuttgart was founded in 1893 as aRugby Club and played the Sport till 1933 ! Then in 1934 my team the SRC tok the tradition and the remaning VfB Rugbyplayers and keept the tradition alive till today!!!

 

[Jaguares]

thats like asking why spain isn't poplular for rugby when they're bordered with france and italy

Yeah but Germany isn't Spain. Germany is the biggest country in UE, the largest economy in UE and they have good genetics, many of them are tall and strong. They are very similar to the Dutch, and the Afrikaners (white South Africans) are descendants of Dutch, so Germany has good genetics for rugby. They really could be a world power in rugby, the Spanish don't have the money and the genetics of the German IMO.

the winter is the least problem beleave me! Rugby has a long tradition in Germany ! Here in Stuttgart we play it since 1860!!!

Our local Bundesliga Club the VfB Stuttgart was founded in 1893 as aRugby Club and played the Sport till 1933 ! Then in 1934 my team the SRC tok the tradition and the remaning VfB Rugbyplayers and keept the tradition alive till today!!!

I'm talking about American football in Germany. In Argentina, we have about 500 rugby clubs and more than 110,000 rugby players. How many American Football clubs were in Germany? How many american football players were in Germany?

Cheers

 

[Big Ewis]

thats like asking why spain isn't poplular for rugby when they're bordered with france and italy

Spain has a border with Italy ??? Daaaaaaaamn.....

But you do actually bring up an interesting point. France literally plays Rugby within the very freaking borders of Spain, right there in the French Catalan region, and as soon as you cross that extra meter to shift countries, not a oval ball in sight.

 

[SimonG]

Very interesting article on Rugby in Europe..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8534780.stm

French rugby thrives only in the south-west of France.

No one knows how rugby took hold in this part of France. The most likely explanation is that English sailors, picking up wine in Bordeaux played it at the dockyard, and the game grabbed the locals' attention.

Apart from a few Welsh valleys, this is the only part of Europe where young boys grow up wanting to be rugby stars instead of football players."

On why French now play boring rugby;

One fan, policeman Alain Pietau, who also trains a junior side in his spare time, told me that because of the foreign influx, the famous "French flair" - a fast paced, risk taking and attractive attacking style was disappearing from the game.

The French are under pressure to copy the stodgy game played elsewhere that is boring to watch - but ultimately more successful.

The biggest challenge of all may also be the hardest to resolve - the game has yet to capture mass appeal outside this region.

The rugby authorities based in Paris have been trying for years to bridge the gap, with limited success.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Spain has a border with Italy ??? Daaaaaaaamn.....

But you do actually bring up an interesting point. France literally plays Rugby within the very freaking borders of Spain, right there in the French Catalan region, and as soon as you cross that extra meter to shift countries, not a oval ball in sight.

who's that ? and i didn't realise i typed italy 2 lol but spain is also a big country in the EU.

 

[Thingimubob]

Yeah but Germany isn't Spain. Germany is the biggest country in UE, the largest economy in UE and they have good genetics, many of them are tall and strong. They are very similar to the Dutch, and the Afrikaners (white South Africans) are descendants of Dutch, so Germany has good genetics for rugby. They really could be a world power in rugby, the Spanish don't have the money and the genetics of the German IMO.



I'm talking about American football in Germany. In Argentina, we have about 500 rugby clubs and more than 110,000 rugby players. How many American Football clubs were in Germany? How many american football players were in Germany?

Cheers

Man you do like to talk about genetics, which is something that isn't really that big a factor when it comes to rugby popularity...

And anyway, from what I've read on wikipedia in the past, there was an attempt to bring NFL to Europe with the (aptly named) NFL Europe, from 1991 to 2007. Was pretty much dominated by the Germans, in the final season it was made up of 5 German teams and one Dutch. League was losing $30 billion a year though, so not particularly viable.

 

[Big Ewis]

the actual reason, as in the historical reason, why in France the Southwest plays Rugby is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. It would be something like, yes, what's been mentioned here: English sailors come over, play a bit, it lingers since then...we definitely got Rugby from the English specifically I'm sure.

The more interest scope to the reason is really genetic/cultural. Rugby is available and has been for decades and decades to all of France, but it is only the Southwesterners who took to it. It's therefor in the temperament of those people, and so does every people/ethnic group or even smaller division have their own taste for food, arts and everything - so do they have taste for sports/physical activities.

In sense, they were bound to discover it and love it eventually, it just so happens it occurred relatively early, historically...

I've always found it interesting people from Brittany, the East coast arm in the Atlantic, were so profoundly obsessed with football (soccer) and not Rugby at all. They're still very, very Celtic, and directly affiliated with the people from Wales and Cornwall. They adapted to a different environment I guess, and developed their own cultural trait for sports...
It's the most prolific region in France in terms of licensed players (soccer).

 

[SimonG]

I think the worry for France is the games popularity will decline if they continue to play foreign (boring) Rugby. To no longer play the French way will surely alienate those who long for it. I remember Brazil winning the '94 World Cup and although Brazilians were delighted to win and celebrated like crazy, they didn't like the defensive (non Brazilian) style the team played (with the exception of strikers Romario and Bebeto) and they had no choice but to abandon this defensive style quickly even though it got them a World Cup.

The French love flair, not just in the sporting arena but in general. They laud such players in football; Zidane, Platini, Henry in the past and Ribery today, they have to play the French way otherwise they get booed. If the Rugby team continues to abandon their way of playing and adopt the "stodgy" foreign game then I can see the game being in trouble, even in southwest France.

 

[Thingimubob]

I think the worry for France is the games popularity will decline if they continue to play foreign (boring) Rugby. To no longer play the French way will surely alienate those who long for it. I remember Brazil winning the '94 World Cup and although Brazilians were delighted to win and celebrated like crazy, they didn't like the defensive (non Brazilian) style the team played (with the exception of strikers Romario and Bebeto) and they had no choice but to abandon this defensive style quickly even though it got them a World Cup.

The French love flair, not just in the sporting arena but in general. They laud such players in football; Zidane, Platini, Henry in the past and Ribery today, they have to play the French way otherwise they get booed. If the Rugby team continues to abandon their way of playing and adopt the "stodgy" foreign game then I can see the game being in trouble, even in southwest France.

Don't think you're quite spot on there. Look at Wales, another nation that has a long history of flair in it's game. We might not be quite the same as the French, but i still remember after Wales won that first Grandslam in 27 years in '05, that so many people said "we did it our way, with Welsh flai". However under Warren Gatland we've moved away from the flair style and focused on bashing opponents into the ground with waves of attacks. Yet the fans are still happy with it because it's proven successful, producing 2 Grandslams, a Championship and a victorious Lions tour.
I can't help but think the French would be the same if they were winning. You think the French fans, rugby or otherwise, wouldn't have gone nuts if they'd pipped New Zealand in 2011, despite the poor tournament they'd had before the final?

 

[SimonG]

The Wales point is a fair one, however the French are renowned for voicing their displeasure at what they see. The BBC link points to them lamenting the stodgy foreign influence and disappearing Franch flair.

For those of us who put flair as the top requirement, with the lack of it now in Rugby as a spectacle it has nosedived. The French were used to seeing their team play exciting Rugby for decades, so to adopt foreign ways (which has made them worse btw) I can't see the same level of interest being there.

 

[RoosTah]

I've always felt that Rugby is psychologically a game suited to countries like Germany and Russia. It would be interesting to see what Europe would be like if Rugby had grown in places like that. If it had a large pro-league I imagine the Germans would play a very South African brand of rugby, but more technically adept.

I also find it interesting that Germans branded soccer 'the German game', when it was manifestly English and they have no authority on how the game is governed. In Australia people think of Rugby League as being more an Australian game than an English one in spite of its English origins. But the reality is that this is largely true; Rugby League has evolved off the back of innovations in rule changes, tactics and training methods that all started in Australia. The English may have started the game, but the NRL owns it. All the same, we never called it "the Australian game" (Australian Football would be ****** if we did lol).

On France and flair, the same problem exists in Australia. The golden era of the Wallabies was built on an open running game pioneered by the Wallabies of the famous Randwick club of Sydney. Funnily enough, as the team got more successful and won their second World Cup in 1999, the pressure to continue their winning ways and the fact that the All Blacks had developed a better version of Australia's running game meant that the team started playing more risk averse Rugby. This really started with the overly technical coaching style of Eddie Jones and continued up until the end of the Connolly era. Sadly, this was close to a 6 year period, and a lot of fans dropped off. A lot of hope came on the back of Robbie Deans' appointment, but his tenure was marked by continuous conflicts with players and a dire record against the ABs (although he had a brilliant record against the Boks - winning 5 straight at one point).

The result of this for us has effectively been an edict from the ARU that Aussie teams have to play "attractive" rugby. We're seeing a more open game as a result, but it'll take a while before they return to the heady days of the late 90s and early 00s when the Wallabies was the only national team anyone in the country cared about.

It's interesting that in France, the game is more like it is in places like Wales and New Zealand, where it was intertwined with people in hard labour roles like mining and farming. I remember reading a quote from a famous kiwi once that rugby's grinding and physical nature perfectly suited the psyche of the country's predominately land working population. I'm not sure about it's mythology in France and Wales, but in NZ it seemed an almost spiritual pursuit.

 

[SimonG]

Nah the Germans embrace the fact the game is English (they even sing about it..."footballs coming home"). Started in '96 when the England song "Three Lions" came out (probably the best England football tune) which the Germans started singing, and last year the Germans sang it again (Bayern Munich fans) when their team played the Champions League final in London.

The Germans have no authority (well, no more than any other country as its a collaboration, FIFA) over how football is governed because it's global. If they were the only team in town then different story. India pretty much does what it likes in cricket as its power dwarfs the other 5 or 6 countries that play it. This is similar to Rugby League sanzar has described as although it's a northern English sport, the Aussie game is the only powerful one. The NRL is played in two cities (Sydney and Brisbane), Super league is played in small northern English towns. Now if Super League suddenly took of in cities such as London, Manchester etc then different story, it would obliterate the NRL out of the water. The rule changes (whatever they are) are insignificant as non followers (such as myself) couldn't tell the difference.

The point on Aussies being similar to the French and the lack of flair is something that I've also thought of. The great Campese never shuts up about it. Aussies demand to see exciting Rugby (heck they'd remove the scrum given the chance) and dislike the set piece nature of the game. I did wonder if this has played a part in the sports decline there. Quade Cooper is wanted by the Aussie fans, but not the coaches, which kinda sums up the difference in mentality of their respective demands of how the game should be played. Carlos Spencer had the same issue...no "off the cuff" type players fit the sterile mould of the current game.

 

[RoosTah]

Nah the Germans embrace the fact the game is English (they even sing about it..."footballs coming home"). Started in '96 when the England song "Three Lions" came out (probably the best England football tune) which the Germans started singing, and last year the Germans sang it again (Bayern Munich fans) when their team played the Champions League final in London.

The NRL is played in two cities (Sydney and Brisbane), Super league is played in small northern English towns. Now if Super League suddenly took of in cities such as London, Manchester etc then different story, it would obliterate the NRL out of the water. The rule changes (whatever they are) are insignificant as non followers (such as myself) couldn't tell the difference.

The point on Aussies being similar to the French and the lack of flair is something that I've also thought of. The great Campese never shuts up about it. Aussies demand to see exciting Rugby (heck they'd remove the scrum given the chance) and dislike the set piece nature of the game. I did wonder if this has played a part in the sports decline there. Quade Cooper is wanted by the Aussie fans, but not the coaches, which kinda sums up the difference in mentality of their respective demands of how the game should be played. Carlos Spencer had the same issue...no "off the cuff" type players fit the sterile mould of the current game.

Quade has been back in favour in Aus since McKenzie took over both at state and national level. The problem now is that he's just not creating much. That may change yet though.

On league, it's increasingly gaining a foothold in Melbourne now too - the Storm average higher crowds than most teams and some of the more old school AFL fans have gotten into it almost as a protest vote over what they see as the softening up of the AFL though recent rule changes that limit certain kinds of contact.

That said, of course the super league would make the NRL insignificant were it to take off in London. But there's a very remote prospect of that happening, as sport is very much about identity, and in the UK RL is seen as a game for obscure northerners with funny accents.

 

[SimonG]

Mckenzie pretty much went along with public opinion ("I'd play Quade") which he knew would get himself the job..my theory anyway. Recall the Aussie public lamenting his absence and using it as a stick to hit Deans with.

I share the Aussie mentality of how the game should be played (ie.an exciting entertaining one). The French public I know do too, hence why I say I cannot see them sitting quietly while the stodgy foreign game infiltrates their own.

Yeah that is the perception of RL folk by snooty southerners, comes back to the old class divide that permeates in the two sports.

 

[Big Ewis]

the lack of flair has definitely disinterested the older generations in France. My dad only likes it when teams play without going to ground every single pass; he's in constant poetry mode when he watches the current all-blacks, can't quit lauding their prowess to keep the ball alive and play a fluid running style. He's obviously stuck in his own days when attacking was such a huge part of the game, especially back when he was in France watching the good stuff as it happened. So I think he represents the nostalgic older generation quite well. The younger generation, we're all about stats, super pedantic/accurate analysis etc...and the game has turned extremely serious in very little time.

But although the style in France has been rendered more rigid and pragmatic, backs still kept that French style of beating defenders, looking for mismatches, footwork...I'm not going to enumerate names because they basically all play like that in France. But it's the systems indeed that limit that sort of play.
Whether the number of fans has risen or dropped, I'm not sure, but the fanbase still is very potent in the country so I'm not worried...
We do, even the younger generation, long for more flair, that's for sure. It's constantly, constantly brought up.

 

[Jaguares]

Quade has been back in favour in Aus since McKenzie took over both at state and national level. The problem now is that he's just not creating much. That may change yet though.

On league, it's increasingly gaining a foothold in Melbourne now too - the Storm average higher crowds than most teams and some of the more old school AFL fans have gotten into it almost as a protest vote over what they see as the softening up of the AFL though recent rule changes that limit certain kinds of contact.

That said, of course the super league would make the NRL insignificant were it to take off in London. But there's a very remote prospect of that happening, as sport is very much about identity, and in the UK RL is seen as a game for obscure northerners with funny accents.

RL has always been more popular than RU in Australia? Even in the golden years of Wallabies? (1991-2003). Because now you have 14 Aussies teams in NRL and only 5 teams in Super Rugby. And from what I heard, the 14 Aussies NRL teams have bigger budget and larger crowd than the 5 Aussies Super Rugby teams. It's a very strange situation, among the countries with a long tradition in rugby, Australia is the only country where the League is bigger than the Union.

the lack of flair has definitely disinterested the older generations in France. My dad only likes it when teams play without going to ground every single pass; he's in constant poetry mode when he watches the current all-blacks, can't quit lauding their prowess to keep the ball alive and play a fluid running style. He's obviously stuck in his own days when attacking was such a huge part of the game, especially back when he was in France watching the good stuff as it happened. So I think he represents the nostalgic older generation quite well. The younger generation, we're all about stats, super pedantic/accurate analysis etc...and the game has turned extremely serious in very little time.

But although the style in France has been rendered more rigid and pragmatic, backs still kept that French style of beating defenders, looking for mismatches, footwork...I'm not going to enumerate names because they basically all play like that in France. But it's the systems indeed that limit that sort of play.
Whether the number of fans has risen or dropped, I'm not sure, but the fanbase still is very potent in the country so I'm not worried...
We do, even the younger generation, long for more flair, that's for sure. It's constantly, constantly brought up.

Rugby is the second most popular sport in France (Before football) around the ALL country?