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Gatland gone
- Thread starter Becca
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Matt Sherratt in.
I wonder if he will, or can even, call up Jarrod Evans. He's signed Ioan Lloyd for Cardiff as well. Max Llewelyn is surely coming in if he can make changes. Bring those in and we're winning the triple crown.
I wonder if he will, or can even, call up Jarrod Evans. He's signed Ioan Lloyd for Cardiff as well. Max Llewelyn is surely coming in if he can make changes. Bring those in and we're winning the triple crown.
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He also clearly sees Ben Thomas as a 12. I'm feeling more optimistic already. We're obviously not going to beat Ireland but imagine if we keep the Ireland loss to 15/20 points and scored a couple of tries. What a result that would be.
Borthwick out in a month or so, having only managed to beat the French....
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Gatland's career is a rugby nerd's heaven to analyse. Pretty simplified below but here's my view on it.
The Ireland years were so impressive. He was the first coach in the country that realised fitness and discipline were rather important in the game as well as a close look regarding tactics and and he took Galwegians to the All Ireland League, Connacht from perennial whipping boys to the knockouts of challenge cup rugby and got through a 6n with Ireland with only one loss in 01 which was the best performance since the 1985 championship / triple crown, he also ended long droughts against Scotland, England, France and Australia. He was usurped by Eddie O'Sullivan who realistically was nothing more than a highly competent backs coach, huge mistake by the IRFU.
Wasps was his first go at using his tactics in a truly professional set up and his record there speaks for itself, dominating England and adding a Heineken and challenge cup to his tally.
With Wales, he was the first international coach that realised mixing size across the pitch with great game managers and one or two gamebreakers would go very far in international rugby and they were often a top three team. It really took until 2014 with the arrival of Schmidt and Lancaster for other European teams to catch up. He struggled against SA because his way was their DNA and against NZ who were doing exactly what he did, although rather deceptively because they were also lightyears agead in terms of deception and playing to space.
Once Schmidt and Lancaster brought that bit extra to England and Ireland he struggled a bit more, going 5 years without a championship. By 2019, I don't think he really improved his attacking structures but realised a team could get meaner on defence and use that as their first form of attack and another slam and world cup semi final followed, interestingly with quite a poor try scoring rate for the time (tied last with Italy in tries scored in 2019 which is an anomaly). I think the relative lack of attacking output was evident in both Lions tours in 17 and 21 also. Staying loyal to Howley absolutely exacerbated this.
I think he got out of Wales at the right time and shouldn't have come back. He'd gone as far as he could plugging holes in his attacking game with strengths elsewhere and couldn't keep up with what other top European coaches have been doing for four years now since catching up in other areas.
Truly elite coach. Absolute ****** (should be taken as a compliment a la POM's boos) / mental game expert. And the basis of his game are littered all over current elite coachess games who've left him in the dust.
His second stint at Wales will and should tarnish his legacy, but only to a certain extent. The WRU being the real perpetrators of the current landscape of Welsh rugby.
Drafting this induced huge inner conflict so I hope you enjoy.
The Ireland years were so impressive. He was the first coach in the country that realised fitness and discipline were rather important in the game as well as a close look regarding tactics and and he took Galwegians to the All Ireland League, Connacht from perennial whipping boys to the knockouts of challenge cup rugby and got through a 6n with Ireland with only one loss in 01 which was the best performance since the 1985 championship / triple crown, he also ended long droughts against Scotland, England, France and Australia. He was usurped by Eddie O'Sullivan who realistically was nothing more than a highly competent backs coach, huge mistake by the IRFU.
Wasps was his first go at using his tactics in a truly professional set up and his record there speaks for itself, dominating England and adding a Heineken and challenge cup to his tally.
With Wales, he was the first international coach that realised mixing size across the pitch with great game managers and one or two gamebreakers would go very far in international rugby and they were often a top three team. It really took until 2014 with the arrival of Schmidt and Lancaster for other European teams to catch up. He struggled against SA because his way was their DNA and against NZ who were doing exactly what he did, although rather deceptively because they were also lightyears agead in terms of deception and playing to space.
Once Schmidt and Lancaster brought that bit extra to England and Ireland he struggled a bit more, going 5 years without a championship. By 2019, I don't think he really improved his attacking structures but realised a team could get meaner on defence and use that as their first form of attack and another slam and world cup semi final followed, interestingly with quite a poor try scoring rate for the time (tied last with Italy in tries scored in 2019 which is an anomaly). I think the relative lack of attacking output was evident in both Lions tours in 17 and 21 also. Staying loyal to Howley absolutely exacerbated this.
I think he got out of Wales at the right time and shouldn't have come back. He'd gone as far as he could plugging holes in his attacking game with strengths elsewhere and couldn't keep up with what other top European coaches have been doing for four years now since catching up in other areas.
Truly elite coach. Absolute ****** (should be taken as a compliment a la POM's boos) / mental game expert. And the basis of his game are littered all over current elite coachess games who've left him in the dust.
His second stint at Wales will and should tarnish his legacy, but only to a certain extent. The WRU being the real perpetrators of the current landscape of Welsh rugby.
Drafting this induced huge inner conflict so I hope you enjoy.
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Invariably a mistake going back. There's a reason why you left your job or your relationship broke up.
Did Gatland make the best of the hand he was dealt? Nope.
Was the hand he was dealt beyond absolutely lousy? Yup.
Would results have been massively different under someone else? Probably not.
Wales enjoyed some really good times under him first time around. I hope this doesn't tarnish those memories too much.
Did Gatland make the best of the hand he was dealt? Nope.
Was the hand he was dealt beyond absolutely lousy? Yup.
Would results have been massively different under someone else? Probably not.
Wales enjoyed some really good times under him first time around. I hope this doesn't tarnish those memories too much.
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So that's 3 English head coaches for the remainder of the 6N. Our pleasure, Celtic cousins.
4 once Galthie gets the push and is replaced by Edwards.
4 once Galthie gets the push and is replaced by Edwards.
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You can wait 6 months to claim that because you're not having Easterby.
Grew up there but hasn't lived there for over half his life and rejected an Emgland call up in 2000 to play for Ireland.
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Maybe Wales might be having Easterby! He'd be as good a fit as anyone I think with an understanding of the Welsh system and its myriad problems, having played for both the Region and a Franchise.
Booboobang
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I have little sympathy for gatland, or the welsh board tbh.
From both ends, Gatland left because he wanted a fresh start and the welsh board gave him megabucks when it was clear from the lions and chiefs stays he was very much yesterdays man. But wales got a decent WC run compared to expectations and gatland got a ridiculous pay day. I would say maybe he should of gone to a DOR role, but I am just not sure developing pathways and infrastructure for talent Id and development is something I would say he would excel in at this stage in his career.
I do think the would results be massively differnt is a funny one, in terms of wins and losses? ehhh maybe not, but when you look at what some of the coaches have done to build rugby in developing nations like paraguay, portugal, uraguay etc... who have built player pools from the ground up and are now excelling for their level. Hell even rassie, south african rugby had real issues with talent coming through and were living of the previous aging generation and he came in and set up extensive scouting and coaching systems, nucifora helped ireland with its pathways, and is doing it with scotland now with gregor townsend doing something similiar to rassie with scotlands a team/transition squads now with hands on coaching.
Wales desperately need a nucifora, rassie, CEO type because I do somewhat agree, no coach focused on match to match results is going to sort this out in the short term and modern international HC's are having to becoming more and more DOR esc. Focus on short term is a fools errand when its got to this point.
Gatland was a truly elite coach, and what he did early in his career was amazing, but the game has passed him by.
I'm not sure gatland would have committed to spend the time in Wales needed to improve the talent production systems. Can't really do it from NZ.
This is all set up for Wales to beat England last day of the Championship and avoid the Wooden Spoon. They are an awful side but the sight of the white jersey has done some strange things to some shocking Welsh teams in the past. Those players could have lost 16 in a row, but if they beat England, they are heroes. What has come before it wouldn't matter a jot.
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Think you've confused Wales with Scotland
Booboobang
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I tend to agree, which is why I dont think he fits that role, and he seems to have gotten worse at the politicing and relationship building as he has aged and that is key for building that. But that is what was and is needed which is why I dispute the narrative that no one would do a better job...
