France vs Afrique du Sud

[stormer2010]

With the midweek team allready announced and the fact that H Brussouw has been promoted to the test team its pretty obvious what the Bok squad will look like barring further injury (although one never knows with PDiv. I doubt he would consider anybody from the midweek squad even if they shined considering the differences in travel arrangements. Bar Earl Rose but that won't happen);

15 Zane Kirshner
14 JP Pietersen
13 Jacque Fourie
12 Adi Jacobs
11 Bryan Habana
10 Morne Steyn
9 Fourie du Preez
8 Ryan Kankokowski
7 Schalk Burger
6 Heinrich Brussouw
5 Victor Matfield
4 Bakkies Botha
3 John Smit
2 Bismark du Plessis
1 Tendai Mtawarira

A pretty good squad that is unusually consistent and resilient for an SA team even if I am still waiting for them to keep the intensity up for a full 80 minutes. They are a settled bunch and I am sure any newcomers will benefit from this created by the consistency in selection of the core group. Players getting a recall to the starting line-up will include Ryan Kankowski, Zane Kirschner and Adi Jacobs forming a new center partnership with Jacque Fourie.

That said, if any of the NH teams pose a threat it is France. More so than the current European ***le holders Ireland IMO; historically speaking France is the one team that has most regularly upset both SA and NZ and can on the day beat anyone. Ireland in my opinion is consistently superb but a known enemy handled many times before and handled while enhanced by its British neighbors earlier in the year (cue Gonorrhea). Also, if any country can match the Springbok forward pack it is France. So, in my view, it is the mercurial French that pose the biggest threat to our tour aspirations. I wonder for which side the fixture being on Friday the 13th will prove unlucky..

I for one am just about as confident as one can be against les Bleus (toss a coin). My concerns revolve around an untested center combination, the effetiveness/appropriateness of playing Kanko against the French pack (devastating runner but contributes near nothing to whether his forward pack dominates) and a lingering concern about the wisdom of playing John Smit at tighthead (no IMO, we have quality tightheads and why not have 2 great hookers with enough leaders in the sqaud to compensate for if Smit is not on the field). Kirschner is not our best bet at 15 but at least he is playing in position. Remember, it could have been Earl Rose.

I am going to try my hand at picking a probable french starting XV but plead ignorance;

15 Maxime Medard
14 Cedric Heymans
13 Maxime Mermoz
12 Yann David
11 Vincent Clerc
10 Francois Trinh-Duc
9 Julien Dupuy
8 Louis Picamoles
7 Alexandre Lapandry
6 Thierry Dusautoir
5 Romain Millo-Chluski
4 Pascal Pape
3
2 William Servat
1

No idea who the form props might be.

So, who do you think will line up and what will the outcome be?



So, what do you think and what would your predictions for line-ups and outcomes be.

 

[elgringoborracho]

That would be my starting team against the boks:

Medard
Heymans Mermoz Marty Clerc
Dupuy Trinh-Duc
Ouedraogo Harinordoquy Dusautoir
Pape Nallet
Mas Servat Barcella

Very offensive team, though very risky with Trinh-Duc's unconsistent kicking game and under the high balls with Medard not as consistent as say Traille, but a hell of an attacker. Servat at 2 instead of Szar because he's our best thrower and he's on top form at the moment. Mermoz Marty is the best center pair of the top 14 by far this season and I really hope they'll start the match together.
Always very flattering to read those comments on France supposedly being able to cause upsets against the big ones but I don't see it happening this time. With very little time to prepare the tests and such a giant coming... I'll be in Toulouse for the game though, watching my two favorite teams in the world play against each other it should be something! :bana:

Can't wait for it, whatever the result it will be an immense show

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elgringoborracho @ Nov 3 2009, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Very offensive team, though very risky with Trinh-Duc's unconsistent kicking game and under the high balls with Medard not as consistent as say Traille, but a hell of an attacker.[/b]

If one thing has come out of the 3N this year it is SA's brilliant aerial game; tactical kicking by FdP and Steyn with the quick (Habana) and tall (Pietersen/J Fourie) chasers. Expect to see more of the same. We would be idiots not to play to our strengths especially considering the inconsistencies at breakdown and the quality of defense these days. Oops, I forgot, the SA selectors are idiot because we do in fact have the perfect replacement to Frans Steyn's boot and this one is even more accurate with the long bombs and at posts and even a greater attacking threat; Riaan Viljoen but don't expect them to field him ahead of Kirschner even if he does suite our game like no-one else. I guess we can be lucky he is at least in the squad if only on the bench for the midweek match up.

If your line-up is the one fielded it will probably be a kicking orientated gameplan against a running one. That is the beauty of the game for me; more than one road to victory and it all depends on the accuracy in execution and countering or even then in the bounce of the ball at times.

 

[shtove]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 4 2009, 05:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If one thing has come out of the 3N this year it is SA's brilliant aerial game; tactical kicking by FdP and Steyn with the quick (Habana) and tall (Pietersen/J Fourie) chasers. Expect to see more of the same. We would be idiots not to play to our strengths especially considering the inconsistencies at breakdown and the quality of defense these days.[/b]

France had a nightmare against Argentina in the RWC trying to counter the aerial game. Have they faced anything as intense since then or had to adapt their game? I guess not.

I think everyone who wants to stay awake hopes SA can find the extra dimension, but I guess it's not been necessary ... so far (Nov 28 Croke Park).

p.s. What a RWC final we missed - Argentina v SA - 80 mins spent looking in to the sky.

 

[elgringoborracho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 3 2009, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If your line-up is the one fielded it will probably be a kicking orientated gameplan against a running one. That is the beauty of the game for me; more than one road to victory and it all depends on the accuracy in execution and countering or even then in the bounce of the ball at times.[/b]

We could choose to field Traille at 15 for example, he's more reliable to catch up n unders and he has a huge boot. But that's just not our style, and everytime we tried to play like that we missed. The best game we played in a long time was the first test against the AB's in June. And we had pretty much that team. We scored some nice tries and were deadly in the counterattack. Let's try that again.

The problem is recently SA have been using a sort of mix between field occupation and counterattack, ie if you fail to catch an up n under you look behind and Habana is already laughing between the posts. And if you catch it you got Brüssow provoking a penalty and Morne slotting it. So our back 3 will have to be on fire for that not to happen, and I believe Toulouse's still is the best for that.

 

[Jer1cho]

Ruan Pienaar will play at 15. Not Zane Kirchner. That mediocre kicking-move spoiling idiot is nowhere near ready to take on a team like France.

 

[Bull]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 4 2009, 07:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Ruan Pienaar will play at 15. Not Zane Kirchner. That mediocre kicking-move spoiling idiot is nowhere near ready to take on a team like France.[/b]

Well I'm not very fond of Kirchner myself but he is a lot better than Ruan Pienaar at FB. At least Kirchner is a recognised FB where as Ruan Pienaar has no set position and his positional play at FB is abysmal. PdV will make a huge mistake picking Jacobs at inside centre, hell he made a mistake when picking him for any sort of team, can't tackle, break a line or kick. His perception of distributing the ball is putting in a chip or grubber kick and he's slower than cancer.

 

[Jer1cho]

My starting 15 would be:

1 - Beast
2 - Bismark
3 - John Smit
4 - Bakkies Botha
5 - Victor Matfield
6 - Heinrich Brussouw
7 - Schalk Burger
8 - Ryan Kankowski

9 - Fourie du Preez

10 - Morne Steyn
11 - Bryan Habana
12 - Wynand Olivier
13 - Jaque Fourie
14 - JP Pieterson
15 - Ruan Pienaar

 

[Jockstap]

"If one thing has come out of the 3N this year it is SA's brilliant aerial game; tactical kicking by FdP and Steyn with the quick (Habana) and tall (Pietersen/J Fourie) chasers. Expect to see more of the same. We would be idiots not to play to our strengths especially considering the inconsistencies at breakdown and the quality of defense these days"


While I still think South Africa are massive favourites, this is one of the main reasons I'm quitely confidant about the match in Croke Park. Ireland are probably the best team in the World when it comes to dealing with the High Ball. With the Likes of Kearney and Bowe in the back three former Gaelic Footballers where the high ball is a major part of our game. If we can nullify this part of SA's game then we're in with a great chance.

 

[Steve-o]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 4 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

My starting 15 would be:

1 - Beast
2 - Bismark
3 - John Smit
4 - Bakkies Botha
5 - Victor Matfield
6 - Heinrich Brussouw
7 - Schalk Burger
8 - Ryan Kankowski

9 - Fourie du Preez

10 - Morne Steyn
11 - Bryan Habana
12 - Wynand Olivier
13 - Jaque Fourie
14 - JP Pieterson
15 - Ruan Pienaar[/b]

I like that line-up, I would choose the same.
Jacobs will probably play 12 though. I've noticed he has been working on the kick game (mostly small chip kicks and grubbers), imo preparing to take over the Bok 12 jersey. He is one of PdV's favourites.

 

[Charles]

I for one would be delighted to see Kirchner a fullback, as he is utter crap. :lol:

Now, I know SA is the in form team this year, but I regret to say that after watching the Lions tests and the Tri Nations, I am not impressed. Big forward pack for sure, good kicking game, good defense in the tight. But at the same time, their backs defense has been very very flaky (as showed by the Lions tests), and if you can negate their forward pack then the game plan crumbles, esp if it's Steyn at #10.

I'm going to be very bold and predict a French victory. :huh: :lol: :bravo:

I'm not saying we're gonna annihilate them but we have a good chance.

Our pack hasn't been that strong in years, and finally we got some flair in the backs.

Head to head based on Jerichos'team

Fabien Barcella 1 - Beast Barcella, the best loose head in France. Very mobile around the park, and is going to make micemeat of Smit
Wiliam Servat 2 - Bismark. Servat for the experience.

Nicolas Mas 3 - John Smit. Mas, no contest. One of the mosr solid tight head in the world.
Lionel Nallet 4 - Bakkies Botha. Botha takes this one

Pascal Pape 5 - Victor Matfield. Matfield for his lineout abilities.

Dusautoir 6 - Heinrich Brussouw. too close to call. If Brussow is Mr Turn-Over, Dusautoir is Mr Tackle.

Fulgence Ouedraogo 7 - Schalk Burger. Again, two contrasting styles. Schalk is the enforcer, but Fulgence is everywhere on the park, truly the new Olivier Magne. Very useful in securing the rucks, defense and usually the first link to the ball carrier.

Imanol Harinordoquy 8 - Ryan Kankowski. Imanol hands down.

Julien Dupuy 9 - Fourie du Preez. Du preez

Francois Trinh-Duc 10 - Morne Steyn. Too different to compare. I would say Trinh-Duc though because although he doesn't have an awesome kicking game he is rock solid in defense (not like Steyn) and is awesome ball in hand (remember his try against the AB's)

Cedric Heymans 11 - Bryan Habana. Habana, although if Heymans is fed good ball and is in a good day, he will run around anyone.

Max Mermoz 12 - Wynand Olivier. Olivier, on basis of High-level experience, although Mermoz is very, very good.

David Marty 13 - Jaque Fourie. Fourie on experience. although Marty has improved a lot the past 2 years and he forms the best centre pairing in France with Mermoz. He is also rock solid in defense

Vincent Clerc 14 - JP Pieterson. I would say Clerc, but I'm biased.

Max Medard 15 - Ruan Pienaar. Pieenar is a classy rugby player, but Medard is a classy fullback.

Let the Flame war begin

 

[Jer1cho]

Steyn won't crack under any pressure. He is a diamond when pressure hits.

Although, i think we will lose to France. Simply because they are the one team we never know how to handle. We always have some sort of gameplan when we play the usual lot, and quite frankly, Wales, Ireland, Scotland and England are teams that i never worry about, because we are simply better than them.

I have always regarded the French as the best team in the NH. Always, and we don't know what to do when we play them. It's like none of the players have any idea how to handle a team like the french. so I am also predicting a French win.

 

[durbutter]

I believe Ireland beat SA when we last played them. It could be argued that, we infact, are the world champions.

 

[Charles]

We also beat SA last time we played them, and we ALSO beat NZ recently :bravo:

I winz teh Interweb 11!!111

:lol:


Also the ref for this game is Wayne Barnes... <_<

 

[stormer2010]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Nov 4 2009, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Nov 4 2009, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My starting 15 would be:

1 - Beast
2 - Bismark
3 - John Smit
4 - Bakkies Botha
5 - Victor Matfield
6 - Heinrich Brussouw
7 - Schalk Burger
8 - Ryan Kankowski

9 - Fourie du Preez

10 - Morne Steyn
11 - Bryan Habana
12 - Wynand Olivier
13 - Jaque Fourie
14 - JP Pieterson
15 - Ruan Pienaar[/b]

I like that line-up, I would choose the same.
Jacobs will probably play 12 though. I've noticed he has been working on the kick game (mostly small chip kicks and grubbers), imo preparing to take over the Bok 12 jersey. He is one of PdV's favourites.
[/b][/quote]

Pienaar at 15? Might as well send a written invitation to the French from our tryline. The man is useless as a fullback; doesn't join the line effectively on attack and is always missing when he needs to field a kick. To be honest I am much happier with Adi playing at 12 than Ruan at 15. Both not our best choice but we know PdV. Although Kirschner is like our 5th best fullback, at least he is a fullback. If Mapoe was in the squad, I might have considered JP Pietersen at FB with Mapoe on the wing as that would also see 3 black players at the back. Lets hold thumbs that Adi doesn't lose us the game at 12. For what its worth my choice 15 (having to pick from squad members) would look like (and this is stretching it a bit, I know);

15 Jacque Fourie / Riaan Viljoen on bench (covers 15)
14 JP Pietersen
13 Juan de Jongh / Francois Hougaard on bench (cover 9, center and wing)
12 Wynand Olivier
11 Bryan Habana
10 Morne Steyn
9 Fourie du Preez / Ruan Pienaar on bench (covers 9 and 10)
8 Ryan Kankowski
7 Schalk Burger / Dewald Potgieter on bench (flank,8)
6 Heinrich Brussouw
5 Victor Matfield
4 Bakkies Botha / Danie Rossouw on bench (lock,flank,8)
3 Jannie du Plessis (should be WP Nel)
2 John Smit / Bismarck du Plessis
1 Tendai Mtawarira / Heinke van der Merwe

That would be the best defensive backline SA has seen for 6 years and Olivier and de Jongh I think would complement each other; Olivier and Fourie too similar to keep opposition guessing. de Jongh with Fourie at the back is also an answer for more attacking threat with ball in hand. Jacque Fourie is solid at the back or at least he was an awesome fullback before he got switched to wing and then centre. Smit is no prop and I am sure it will get hammered into us before long.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (noidsay @ Nov 4 2009, 03:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I believe Ireland beat SA when we last played them. It could be argued that, we infact, are the world champions.[/b]

Ireland decently beat SA last time out. But to be world champions you have to perform consistently for the entire length of the tournament and beat everyone you come across, something SA has a 50% success rate at these world cup championships. As for arguing that Ire could be considered as world champions because they beat SA last time out PRIOR to the tournament in 2006 if I remember correctly? LOL, the permutations if anyone who beat a WC ***le holder at some time in history can claim the ***le! Anyway, the record for all match ups are something like SA15, Ire4. Soon to be one extra to SA.

As for prediction of a French victory.. would you care to put your money on it?

 

[durbutter]

I got a bite. Yay!!!!!

 

[Jer1cho]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stormer2010 @ Nov 4 2009, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Pienaar at 15? Might as well send a written invitation to the French from our tryline. The man is useless as a fullback; doesn't join the line effectively on attack and is always missing when he needs to field a kick. To be honest I am much happier with Adi playing at 12 than Ruan at 15. Both not our best choice but we know PdV. Although Kirschner is like our 5th best fullback, at least he is a fullback. If Mapoe was in the squad, I might have considered JP Pietersen at FB with Mapoe on the wing as that would also see 3 black players at the back. Lets hold thumbs that Adi doesn't lose us the game at 12. For what its worth my choice 15 (having to pick from squad members) would look like (and this is stretching it a bit, I know);[/b]

You are missing the point. The point is, The coach is either going to put Ruan Pienaar at fullback, or Zane Kirchner. If you think that Kirchner would do better, in only his second international, who happen to be France, then i think you are an idiot.

 

[stormer2010]

Kirschner was way better for the Emerging Boks against the B&I Lions than Pienaar was against the Aussies this year. Both have limited test experience in that position so your argument against Kirschner in that regard is moot. At least kirxchner was on hand to field kicks and Fourie du Preez was not there to cover as he was for Pienaar against the Aussies. I would also argue that the B&I Lions were a sterner test. Again, I do not rate Kirschner above Steyn, Terblanche or Viljoen but I do rate him above Pienaar and so would any non-Sharks fan or person who saw him bomb out in that position. Pienaar just might be the most overrated rugby player at the moment and PdVs persistence in plugging him everywhere where he has access to better players is second only to his obsession with forcing a gap for earl Rose. Calling me an idiot only shows your emotional attachment to Pienaar as a very biased Sharks fan. But then again, Sharks fans are the new Bulls fans so it is not unexpected.

 

[Jer1cho]

Did you miss that stupid kick that kirchner made against the B&I Lions which led to their first try? He did the same thing in the Super 14 final. He also screws up tries, and is slow as ****. All he ever does is kick. Nothing else. Pienaar can kick, break lines,and has better vision than Kirchner. Pienaar didn't play well against Australia, but nobody in the entire team did either! Kirchner is ****, regardless of whether or not his team does well or not. It takes a special kind of player to do that.

 

[stormer2010]

I think you somewhat exagerate Kircschner's flaws and flatter Pienaar at the same time but I will concede that Kirschner is ****. Still prefer him above Pienaar, though. But that is only my opinion and you shouldn't mind it overly much.