Form NZ 23

[Radsy]

1) Moody
2) Taylor
3) Tu'ungafasi
4) Tuipulotu
5) Whitlock
6) Frizell
7) Kirifi
8) Savea
9) Smith
10) Mo'unga
11) Bridge
12) Goodhue
13) Umaga-Jensen
14) Reece
15) Jordan

16) Coles
17) Lomax
18) Laulala
19) Mikaele-Tu'u
20) Cane
21) Perenara
22) R.Iaone
23) B. Barrett

What do you think?

If Laumape heals up, he goes in at 12 and Goodhue slides over. Lomax is a tighthead, but I'd find a way to get him in the lineup. Honorable mentions to Caleb Clarke, Finlay Christie, Hoskins Sotutu (injured), Jona Nareki, Josh Iaone, Lachlan Boshier, Vince Aso, Asafo Aumua, and Jordie Barrett who all had fantastic Aotearoa campaigns.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Well, depends what constitutes form. Over what timeframe should we look, and do we only consider how they played at super rugby level, not how they might play at a higher level?

If we are just looking at the last 2-3 weeks of super rugby I can see the rationale behind some of your selections, e.g. Kirifi who on the whole had a poor campaign due to the amount of penalties he conceded but got better in that aspect toward the end. Still, if we were looking at that very short term timeframe Dillon hunt was probably better, especially if we extended the timeframe another few weeks. If we were looking at the whole campaign then papalii was the most consistent in that position. Hunt was consistent too, but papalii Was probably in the top 5 players in Almost every game he played.

And Jordie Barrett has to be one of the first players picked.

Looking at the last half of the comp, and picking solely on super rugby form, not on how it may translate to test level, and taking liberty to move players into different positions than they played, this is my pick

Moody. T Mafileo
Taylor. Dixon
Tu'ungafasi. S mafileo
Whitelock
Tuipolotu. Parkinson
Frizell
Hunt
Savea. Papalii
Smith. Perenara
Mounga. B Barrett
Bridge
Lienert brown
Umaga Jensen. R ione
Jordan
J. Barrett

I've picked pure scrum power for my reserve props. I know traditionally the subs are players who are good around the field, but I think it makes a massive difference to have a dominant scrum at the end of the match. I believe the mafileo brothers (?) are our best scrummaging props.

Jona nareki may be most unlucky to have missed out. If I was just looking at the last two weeks he'd be there for sure

 

[Kiwiwomble]

no mention of Marino Mikaele-Tu'u? he was a stand out in the comp stats they released and personally think the only reason he wasn't up there in tackles was he didn't need to because Frizell and Hunt were one and two in the tackle count, all the talk about Clarke and MMT has more meters and hardly any of them would be in space on the wing

really feel hes unlucky not to have made the North Island Squad

METRES
724: Will Jordan
489: Damian McKenzie
443: Jona Nareki
400: Sean Wainui
384: Sevu Reece
380: Richie Mo'unga, Mitch Hunt
378: Ngani Laumape
351: Marino Mikaele-Tu'u
348: Caleb Clarke

CARRIES
99: Damian McKenzie
95: Pita Gus Sowakula
94: Marino Mikaele Tu'u
88: Will Jordan
83: Jordie Barrett
76: Richie Mo'unga
75: Ngani Laumape
74: Shannon Frizell
72: Sio Tomkinson, Anton Lienert-Brown, Sean Wainui

CLEAN BREAKS
15: Will Jordan
13: Ngani Laumape
12: Sevu Reece, Jona Nareki, Sean Wainui
11: Richie Mo'unga, Marino Mikaele-Tu'u
10: Caleb Clarke, Vince Aso, Aaron Smith

OFF LOADS
11: Marino Miakele-Tu'u
9: Will Jordan, Whetukamokamo Douglas, Sevu Reece, Richie Mo'unga
8: Jack Goodhue, Jona Nareki, Josh Ioane

 

[Umaga's Witness]

no mention of Marino Mikaele-Tu'u? he was a stand out in the comp stats they released and personally think the only reason he wasn't up there in tackles was he didn't need to because Frizell and Hunt were one and two in the tackle count, all the talk about Clarke and MMT has more meters and hardly any of them would be in space on the wing

really feel hes unlucky not to have made the North Island Squad

METRES
724: Will Jordan
489: Damian McKenzie
443: Jona Nareki
400: Sean Wainui
384: Sevu Reece
380: Richie Mo'unga, Mitch Hunt
378: Ngani Laumape
351: Marino Mikaele-Tu'u
348: Caleb Clarke

CARRIES
99: Damian McKenzie
95: Pita Gus Sowakula
94: Marino Mikaele Tu'u
88: Will Jordan
83: Jordie Barrett
76: Richie Mo'unga
75: Ngani Laumape
74: Shannon Frizell
72: Sio Tomkinson, Anton Lienert-Brown, Sean Wainui

CLEAN BREAKS
15: Will Jordan
13: Ngani Laumape
12: Sevu Reece, Jona Nareki, Sean Wainui
11: Richie Mo'unga, Marino Mikaele-Tu'u
10: Caleb Clarke, Vince Aso, Aaron Smith

OFF LOADS
11: Marino Miakele-Tu'u
9: Will Jordan, Whetukamokamo Douglas, Sevu Reece, Richie Mo'unga
8: Jack Goodhue, Jona Nareki, Josh Ioane

That's all well and good, but who would be your three loosies and one reserve for your "form 23"?

They are interesting stats for sure, seeing he is the top forward in all those categories except one, in which he is second to sowakula by a single carry. But would be worth putting them in perspective against rucks attended. I'm actually not big on stats, not just because they dont tell you how good each carry was, how significant each offload was, etc, but because it's a team sport, to your point about hunt and frizell making the tackles, a good player does what is needed given whatever everyone else is doing. Not saying Mikaele-Tu'u wasn't great either, I'm a fan, but it's hard to include everyone. Definitely unlucky to miss out on north vs south, but even then it would have been hard to pick Him given who you'd have to leave out. I think they wanted to reward Akira for his hard work to transform himself, Boshier to send the message that anyone can make it if they're hardworking. And mikaele tuu has improvement in him To become more consistent By adapting to different game circumstances And just keeping that motivation up so I'm sure he will get his chance next year. That's probably actually really harsh as he works himself to a standstill at times. Yeah he's unlucky.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

That's all well and good, but who would be your three loosies and one reserve for your "form 23"?

They are interesting stats for sure, seeing he is the top forward in all those categories except one, in which he is second to sowakula by a single carry. But would be worth putting them in perspective against rucks attended. I'm actually not big on stats, not just because they dont tell you how good each carry was, how significant each offload was, etc, but because it's a team sport, to your point about hunt and frizell making the tackles, a good player does what is needed given whatever everyone else is doing. Not saying Mikaele-Tu'u wasn't great either, I'm a fan, but it's hard to include everyone. Definitely unlucky to miss out on north vs south, but even then it would have been hard to pick Him given who you'd have to leave out. I think they wanted to reward Akira for his hard work to transform himself, Boshier to send the message that anyone can make it if they're hardworking. And mikaele tuu has improvement in him To become more consistent By adapting to different game circumstances And just keeping that motivation up so I'm sure he will get his chance next year. That's probably actually really harsh as he works himself to a standstill at times. Yeah he's unlucky.

fine, the number off carries alone don't tell you how good a carry is...but you can't have a good one if you don't have one, so those guys not on the list can't claim anything more than MMT and if you've watched the lander you'll know there are a lot of good ones in there

if you read stats together though you can start to get a good idea, carries and good number of meters combined with defenders beaten or offloads suggest they were good carries

 

[mania]

wheres otere black for the nth sth trials?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

wheres otere black for the nth sth trials?

this is actually my problem with this game...we know what BB can do...i dont need to see him again...because ive seen him as the best in the world...so if he doesn't reach those heights we'll just be disappointed, i'd have been happy if the locked in first choice AB's had been rested...lets see what someone else can do

 

[mania]

this is actually my problem with this game...we know what BB can do...i dont need to see him again...because ive seen him as the best in the world...so if he doesn't reach those heights we'll just be disappointed, i'd have been happy if the locked in first choice AB's had been rested...lets see what someone else can do

yup and considering he's going to japan he can be rested
but after all the positive accolades about otere they just go and omit him?!?! theres something else going on here

 

[Kiwiwomble]

yup and considering he's going to japan he can be rested
but after all the positive accolades about otere they just go and omit him?!?! theres something else going on here

personally i think its just NZR...they tend to care more about the players than the fans and theyre giving BB a send off

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

personally i think its just NZR...they tend to care more about the players than the fans and theyre giving BB a send off

As they absolutely should...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

As they absolutely should...

i disagree, player welfare obviously...but they're being paid a lot of money to provide entertainment...and now they get pandered too as well

also, keep in mind, pre covid our tops players play less games than those in the NH, AB's play almost as many tests as super games....but its till too many for them

 

[Umaga's Witness]

fine, the number off carries alone don't tell you how good a carry is...but you can't have a good one if you don't have one, so those guys not on the list can't claim anything more than MMT and if you've watched the lander you'll know there are a lot of good ones in there

if you read stats together though you can start to get a good idea, carries and good number of meters combined with defenders beaten or offloads suggest they were good carries

Good point and I agree To a degree but there's just so much more than stats. The main benefit I get from stats is it allows me to see what I didn't see. But there aren't enough ruck based stats for me and just generally the stats that exist are too simple. I still want to know if mikaele tuu is even in your form 23?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

yup and considering he's going to japan he can be rested
but after all the positive accolades about otere they just go and omit him?!?! theres something else going on here

They probably don't see him as all blacks level? He's been pretty awesome but his athleticism may not be at the level they want.

I think it's also worth noting thus isn't best of north Vs best of south, it's a selection of players based on who they see as being able to develop (athletes) and what signals they want to send (work hard and you'll make it).

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Good point and I agree To a degree but there's just so much more than stats. The main benefit I get from stats is it allows me to see what I didn't see. But there aren't enough ruck based stats for me and just generally the stats that exist are too simple. I still want to know if mikaele tuu is even in your form 23?

100% he is...but i dont often put together my own for two reasons

1) im bias
2) i dont watch enough of the other team to honestly have a good feel for them

There has been alot of mentions of smith being the only reason the landers have got he results we have...and thats true to an extent...but for me our back three has done just as much, no injuries and the three of them have been hunting as a pack, my comment about hunt and frizell leading the tackle count goes further than MMT just leaving them too it, he would have been the second or third man for loads of those tackles and was often set up in case we got the turn over for the first hit up, it was the game plan and the three of them executed it as perfectly as anyone could expect

if i was selecting a team i often pick combos, so would would pick a whole back row that is playing well rather than selecting one...that then force a different choice for the other spots

so i would pick

1) front row
2) locks
3) back row
4) centers

all as combos, or at least that would be my starting point and you'd have to be pretty special to break them up, im a firm believe in the "champion team beats a team of champions" idea

 

[Umaga's Witness]

100% he is...but i dont often put together my own for two reasons

1) im bias
2) i dont watch enough of the other team to honestly have a good feel for them

There has been alot of mentions of smith being the only reason the landers have got he results we have...and thats true to an extent...but for me our back three has done just as much, no injuries and the three of them have been hunting as a pack, my comment about hunt and frizell leading the tackle count goes further than MMT just leaving them too it, he would have been the second or third man for loads of those tackles and was often set up in case we got the turn over for the first hit up, it was the game plan and the three of them executed it as perfectly as anyone could expect

if i was selecting a team i often pick combos, so would would pick a whole back row that is playing well rather than selecting one...that then force a different choice for the other spots

so i would pick

1) front row
2) locks
3) back row
4) centers

all as combos, or at least that would be my starting point and you'd have to be pretty special to break them up, im a firm believe in the "champion team beats a team of champions" idea

Absolutely, Smith was godly but the back three were absolutely awesome too. Easily frizell and hunts best seasons. And mikaele tuu was awesome too. Smith wouldn't have looked so good if those guys, particularly frizell, weren't running those lines, hitting it flat, at the right times.

The thing I've noticed about judging players is it is bloody hard. If I focus on just a few players I can notice so much more than if I try and notice everyone. Which just goes to show how impossible it is to judge if you try and notice everyone, and especially if you aren't concentrating really hard on the task.

 

[Radsy]

no mention of Marino Mikaele-Tu'u?\

I had him on my bench!

 

[Radsy]

Well, depends what constitutes form. Over what timeframe should we look, and do we only consider how they played at super rugby level, not how they might play at a higher level?

If we are just looking at the last 2-3 weeks of super rugby I can see the rationale behind some of your selections, e.g. Kirifi who on the whole had a poor campaign due to the amount of penalties he conceded but got better in that aspect toward the end. Still, if we were looking at that very short term timeframe Dillon hunt was probably better, especially if we extended the timeframe another few weeks. If we were looking at the whole campaign then papalii was the most consistent in that position. Hunt was consistent too, but papalii Was probably in the top 5 players in Almost every game he played.

You're right. My picks tended to blend form, history, and international level adaptability.

For instance, I chose Kirifi over Hunt, Papali'i, and Boshier because I love his physicality and speed. Papali'i is more likely to be the future because of his size. Hunt is a fantastic athlete, but like Boshier, needs to add weight for the international game IMO.

 

[mania]

You're right. My picks tended to blend form, history, and international level adaptability.

For instance, I chose Kirifi over Hunt, Papali'i, and Boshier because I love his physicality and speed. Papali'i is more likely to be the future because of his size. Hunt is a fantastic athlete, but like Boshier, needs to add weight for the international game IMO.

Disagree Boshier is perfect as is. Just needs to do more but bulk would ruin his game.

 

[mania]

Absolutely, Smith was godly but the back three were absolutely awesome too. Easily frizell and hunts best seasons. And mikaele tuu was awesome too. Smith wouldn't have looked so good if those guys, particularly frizell, weren't running those lines, hitting it flat, at the right times.

The thing I've noticed about judging players is it is bloody hard. If I focus on just a few players I can notice so much more than if I try and notice everyone. Which just goes to show how impossible it is to judge if you try and notice everyone, and especially if you aren't concentrating really hard on the task.

U gotta watch the game more than once to really see much of the game

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Disagree Boshier is perfect as is. Just needs to do more but bulk would ruin his game.

I can see the argument that he is not big enough, or string enough (noting papalii is smaller than he looks but makes up for it with strength), but I agree that adding weight would be detrimental. different genes giving him a bigger frame might make him more amenable to test rugby, as then he could be just as agile.