F1 Racing

[ncurd]

Stirring the pot nothing will come of it but they are rightly peeved.

I suppose a retroactive penalty of 5 seconds puts Bottas ahead so its worth them throwing the gauntlet.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

RB have done similar. All seems a bit petty and **** from the fans perspective but it makes sense given the stakes.

 

[Reiser99]

I'd say it's definitely worth it as from what I've seen anyone neutral is amazed Verstappen didn't get a penalty. On top with the FIA admitting they didn't look at Verstappen's onboard there is definitely grounds to say they got the decision wrong.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Seems to fairly conclusively show Verstappen did not really try steering into the corner until after he had run Hamilton off the track. It's quite hard to line it up perfectly but here is their relative steering at about the same point in the corner. Hamilton clearly is steering in much tighter and was on a line to make the corner, possibly slightly missing the apex. Verstappen doesn't increase his steering until he has already run Hamilton off the track. Not a fan of the trying to get an unfair advantage by trying to get the other side penalised but Mercedes were kicked in the nuts repeatedly this race and this was pretty blatant. If nothing else, failing to punish this will just lead to him continuing to do it. There are limits to crowding people off the track but not even attempting to make it round the corner yourself is not one of them.

 

[Reiser99]

Formula 1: Mercedes review request of Max Verstappen's Brazil move rejected

Formula 1 officials have rejected Mercedes' request for a review of Max Verstappen's driving during the Sao Paulo Grand Prix.

www.bbc.co.uk

FIA gives drivers green light to drive each other off the track, though in all likelihood they'll actually only allow Verstappen to do it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Absolutely ridiculous "no new evidence presented"... Bullshit, the internal shot was new evidence that lent credibility to the claim that Verstappen did not attempt to take the corner. Even without that, a strong case could have been made. It's completely inconsistent with previous rulings on the matter too...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think Verstappen drives in mould of Senna or Schumacher, they'd have done similar. Don't think it warranted any time pens or to drag into the next race, especially considering the FIA have been far more favourable to Merc who've done more damage to RB this year.

Like, if not for Silverstone and Hungary Max would have this championship wrapped up.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think Verstappen drives in mould of Senna or Schumacher, they'd have done similar. Don't think it warranted any time pens or to drag into the next race, especially considering the FIA have been far more favourable to Merc who've done more damage to RB this year.

Like, if not for Silverstone and Hungary Max would have this championship wrapped up.

Then how can the FIA justify previously punishing drivers for driving other off the track in far less blatant cases? Is that rule purely arbitrary? What now is classed as driving another off the track?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Then how can the FIA justify previously punishing drivers for driving other off the track in far less blatant cases? Is that rule purely arbitrary? What now is classed as driving another off the track?

Do you have any examples of penalties being handed out for a driver going wide, forcing thee other off the track while there's no contact?

Genuine question because I can't remember anyway. It was never more than a black and white flag for me.

 

[ncurd]

Do you have any examples of penalties being handed out for a driver going wide, forcing thee other off the track while there's no contact?

Genuine question because I can't remember anyway. It was never more than a black and white flag for me.

Silverstone, I don't agree with either being a penalty but it's the exact same maneuver.

Contact shouldn't make a difference.

 

[JG-21]

interesting video from July, that I think has relevance today.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Do you have any examples of penalties being handed out for a driver going wide, forcing thee other off the track while there's no contact?

Genuine question because I can't remember anyway. It was never more than a black and white flag for me.

Not sure why contact should be a criteria, there would have been contact if Hamilton hadn't avoided it by going even wider.

 

[Reiser99]

Do you have any examples of penalties being handed out for a driver going wide, forcing thee other off the track while there's no contact?

Genuine question because I can't remember anyway. It was never more than a black and white flag for me.

Contact is irrelevant. Masi said so himself after Hamilton's penalty at silverstone.

Masi: FIA don't judge consequence of incidents when determining penalties

Read more…

readmotorsport.com

This has made the FIA hypocritical as **** and suggests actually they either do let consequences influence their decision or they have been influenced by who the driver was or the championship situation. None of that looks good.

What is worse is that some drivers have already suggested that they are now allowed to run people wide off the track to defend a position, which for me is only going to cause more accidents and probably more dangerous ones, especially on high speed corners.

Honestly if you think breaking late and going off track forcing another driver even further off track is fair racing then I think you need to stick to rugby. I'll put it another way. In rugby, if you go for an intercept and knock it down it's a penalty. Yes you may not have intended to knock down and intended to catch it, but you failed. That's the risk you took. Catch it, high reward, miss and it's a penalty. Same here with Verstappen. If he had manged to pull it off and actually make the apex, then he deserved to keep the place. However, he didn't and he failed in a big way forcing another driver off the track. That's a penalty. He gambled and lost and the only thing that saved him is an FIA that is either spineless or biased.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Contact is irrelevant. Masi said so himself after Hamilton's penalty at silverstone.

Masi: FIA don't judge consequence of incidents when determining penalties

Read more…

readmotorsport.com

This has made the FIA hypocritical as **** and suggests actually they either do let consequences influence their decision or they have been influenced by who the driver was or the championship situation. None of that looks good.

What is worse is that some drivers have already suggested that they are now allowed to run people wide off the track to defend a position, which for me is only going to cause more accidents and probably more dangerous ones, especially on high speed corners.

Honestly if you think breaking late and going off track forcing another driver even further off track is fair racing then I think you need to stick to rugby. I'll put it another way. In rugby, if you go for an intercept and knock it down it's a penalty. Yes you may not have intended to knock down and intended to catch it, but you failed. That's the risk you took. Catch it, high reward, miss and it's a penalty. Same here with Verstappen. If he had manged to pull it off and actually make the apex, then he deserved to keep the place. However, he didn't and he failed in a big way forcing another driver off the track. That's a penalty. He gambled and lost and the only thing that saved him is an FIA that is either spineless or biased.

Arguably it's not even running someone wide off a track to defend a position, it's saying when overtaking you can kamikaze down the inside, take them off the track and all is ok. By that point Verstappen wasn't defending as Hamilton got a whole car length in front of him by the braking zone. Verstappen was attacking in that corner.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So, my perspective here is arguing against a bunch of (English) lads who defended Hamilton after Silverstone and are now after Max for a less consequential (Car positions almost exactly the same and no contact) incident.

It's fairly obvious consequences are only a minor factor here, otherwise Hamilton wouldn't have been allowed the chance to win in Silverstone. Verstappen went wide at a corner multiple drivers did in similar situations over the course of the race, he got it wrong and unfairly pushed a quicker car off the track but you see that all the time, no questions asked. He should have got the black and white flag* which would have stopped him weaving the next lap but he didn't.

Like do you honestly think Verstappen is getting the favouritism here? I read it as Hamilton up a minimum 18 points and a 20 place penalty for the engine damage and Merc up another 18 points minimum after Bottas took him out.

Max and RB are so much quicker this year, the only reason Merc are still in it is by taking Verstappen out and being quick enough to overtake the rest.

*So no claims it was fair

 

[ncurd]

So, my perspective here is arguing against a bunch of (English) lads who defended Hamilton after Silverstone and are now after Max for a less consequential (Car positions almost exactly the same and no contact) incident.

Just so I'm clear here my argument is neither should be a penalty. However as Silverstone (and Monza) were deemed penalty worthy consistentcy says there should be a penalty here.

The issue is because it wasn't dealt with properly in race giving the appropriate penalty according to them (likely 5 seconds up to a stop go) can't be fairly added as we don't know of Verstappen would of defended the gap between him and Bottas.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So, my perspective here is arguing against a bunch of (English) lads who defended Hamilton after Silverstone and are now after Max for a less consequential (Car positions almost exactly the same and no contact) incident.

It's fairly obvious consequences are only a minor factor here, otherwise Hamilton wouldn't have been allowed the chance to win in Silverstone. Verstappen went wide at a corner multiple drivers did in similar situations over the course of the race, he got it wrong and unfairly pushed a quicker car off the track but you see that all the time, no questions asked. He should have got the black and white flag* which would have stopped him weaving the next lap but he didn't.

Like do you honestly think Verstappen is getting the favouritism here? I read it as Hamilton up a minimum 18 points and a 20 place penalty for the engine damage and Merc up another 18 points minimum after Bottas took him out.

Max and RB are so much quicker this year, the only reason Merc are still in it is by taking Verstappen out and being quick enough to overtake the rest.

*So no claims it was fair

Not arguing favouritism. Had Verstappen not been taken out or crashed earlier in the season, this would already be over. The argument is that every time Verstappen has been on the outside of a corner with Hamilton trying to overtake on the inside, Verstappen turns in like Hamilton isn't there and it causes a crash. When the situation is reversed and Hamilton is on the outside with Verstappen on the inside, Verstappen pushes him out and Hamilton avoids causing a crash by going wide. This is another case of Verstappen doing that and it's only Hamiltons avoiding actions that avoided a crash. Had Hamilton driven like Verstappen has and turned in anyway, refusing to go wide, Verstappen would have crashed into him multiple times this season. The fact that one driver takes avoiding action whilst the other doesn't should be a factor.

There's also the matter of consistency, Mercedes were punished for their infringements. Norris and Leclerc were punished for theirs. Throughout the season various drivers have been punished for driving people off the track but the only drive who hasn't is also the one who has done it the most. Now most of that can be put down to hard racing but if you have no chance of taking the corner at all and gain a position by forcing another driver off the track, that should definitely be punished based on the previous precedent.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Verstappen has got equally minor penalties to this point he's just been unluckiest with the result. I reckon this is a case where the FIA won't come out and say that it should have been a black and white flag but by making that mistake they can't go on to make a retrospective call on the weaving (Problematic and something WR would likely do better which is worrying)

Personally I definitely think the result of an infringement should be a factor, it'd be crazy if not, but if the FIA disagree a penalty/warning is warranted.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

gene should be forced to sell to the andretti family. Replace mick and mazepin with Pato and herta. This is embarrassing.

Yeah I know it won't happen but I can dream.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Crazy quali so far