European Champions Cup 2017/18: Pool 2 - Round 2

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBF the irish clubs are on par with the English clubs.

Saints become the whiniest bunch of supporters whenever barnes refs a game v Tigers.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

TBF the irish clubs are on par with the English clubs.

Saints become the whiniest bunch of supporters whenever barnes refs a game v Tigers.

I love Barnes as a Leinster fan... I've found out that assassins are beyond my means having seen he's lined up to ref an Ireland match.

I don't love booing, would rarely engage in it unless I thought something was particularly disgusting but the teams that don't do it are the likes of the Welsh and Sarries who have more players than fans!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Always astonished that the SMM only holds 19k.... feels more like 30-40.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's easy to say all that and ignore that English teams do it too. A fair few boos rang around Sandy Park last week... Glasgow are the worst, they literally boo for no reason, booed Sexton off the pitch simply for teaching them a lesson in rugby.

English fans do it far far less

 

[FrenchFan]

A Sarries/Clermont final isn't going to bring in the crowds that a Leicester/Leinster is

oh yes it will the yellow army will fill any stadium. It'll be just Clermont fans.

 

[FrenchFan]

2 wins in a row over Saracens. I'm sure they'll take it in Auvergne. Saracens could have closed that game in 1st half being up 13 nil.
Clermont showed some bottle to come back and win it.

Clermont Leinster for the final.

 

[valley commando]

Why is their fair share bigger or the same as the Italians or Scottish though? The English teams need the union sides as much as the unions need them to make this competition viable, the unions' clubs need to be competitive for that to work. We're possibly in the last World Cup cycle where Ireland will be able to keep their best players in the country, Wales and Scotland are already seeing their best club players go for money and their clubs have managed to beat Treviso and Saints so far in the tournament not a good return. Without helping Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Italian unions out financially they'll end up making less than they would have under the old system. This competition is a result of a shortsighted money-grab by clubs who want to kill international unions anyway. Anyone who is on the side of international rugby being the pinnacle of the sport shouldn't have this point of view.

I agree with with what you are saying and will add that the money grabbing greedy owners of French some French and English clubs have not got the best interests of Rugby as a whole they are concerned only with self interest and as such the danger is they will turn our game into the same money circus which soccer has become, serving to benefit only those clubs with deep pockets and in turn this will result in the same clubs winning trophies year on year, with the rest as eternal also ran's.
European Rugby needs to implement a level playing field with a salary cap just as the super league does, this has resulted in well run financialy clubs such as little Castleford Tigers being able to top the league.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with with what you are saying and will add that the money grabbing greedy owners of French some French and English clubs have not got the best interests of Rugby as a whole they are concerned only with self interest and as such the danger is they will turn our game into the same money circus which soccer has become, serving to benefit only those clubs with deep pockets and in turn this will result in the same clubs winning trophies year on year, with the rest as eternal also ran's.
European Rugby needs to implement a level playing field with a salary cap just as the super league does, this has resulted in well run financialy clubs such as little Castleford Tigers being able to top the league.

Yet "best interests of rugby" are being used a synonymous with "England and France should pay for everyone else". England and France have become wealthy due to large investment in thing like the stadiums, paying the prices at the gates, sponsorship deals meaning the fans don't get the rugby for free and a variety of other stuff. Now we have clubs and unions who have done none of that demanding the income when they have put nothing towards generating it. No, there is no reason English and French should have to subsidise others. If you want more money why not invest in your stadiums, why not take your games off terrestrial TV and go with paid TV? Why is the response to having not enough money to demand someone else gives it when you aren't prepared to do any of the things they did to get it?

I can agree there is a problem with rugby going the way of football and don't want to see that happen but I also don't want it to be a case of England and France being whacked round the head with a begging bowl and others demanding we basically prop up all of European rugby.

Also yeah the whole thing was a joke. It is a club tournament and you think it makes sense that Scotland with 2 clubs contributing should get the same as England with 6/7? That makes each Scottish club get 3 times what the English clubs would get. If you want to do it by country then it's simple, 2 clubs from each country and split it by country, completely remove the qualifying criteria per league. You can't have one set of criteria done by league when it suits and then demand it be per country the next.

When you have the sides contributing the least getting indignant because those who contribute the most want to make things fairer then you have screwed up sense of fairness.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yet "best interests of rugby" are being used a synonymous with "England and France should pay for everyone else". England and France have become wealthy due to large investment in thing like the stadiums, paying the prices at the gates, sponsorship deals meaning the fans don't get the rugby for free and a variety of other stuff. Now we have clubs and unions who have done none of that demanding the income when they have put nothing towards generating it. No, there is no reason English and French should have to subsidise others. If you want more money why not invest in your stadiums, why not take your games off terrestrial TV and go with paid TV? Why is the response to having not enough money to demand someone else gives it when you aren't prepared to do any of the things they did to get it?

I can agree there is a problem with rugby going the way of football and don't want to see that happen but I also don't want it to be a case of England and France being whacked round the head with a begging bowl and others demanding we basically prop up all of European rugby.

Also yeah the whole thing was a joke. It is a club tournament and you think it makes sense that Scotland with 2 clubs contributing should get the same as England with 6/7? That makes each Scottish club get 3 times what the English clubs would get. If you want to do it by country then it's simple, 2 clubs from each country and split it by country, completely remove the qualifying criteria per league. You can't have one set of criteria done by league when it suits and then demand it be per country the next.

When you have the sides contributing the least getting indignant because those who contribute the most want to make things fairer then you have screwed up sense of fairness.

No one but you is mentioning fairness, it's not really relevant in this type of business. If the Pro14 becomes a second tier competition and Europe turns into an Anglo-French competition that France cares even less about the French pull out of Europe, revert back to a Top 16 and and make up a lot of the difference from European rugby because their rugby league doesn't pale in comparison to their football league and hasn't got any other sports to compete with. They have a bigger population, they're fine without Europe, it's completely sustainable for them. Not so much for the English clubs who badly need Europe and therefore the Irish, Welsh and Scottish (Leaving out the Italians as we are literally propping them up in the hope it makes money in the long run) so it is a simple economic decision to keep these clubs competitive. It is an incredibly shortsighted decision for these debt ridden clubs to attempt to maximise earnings now, attempt to buy all the best players from Wales, Scotland and Ireland and expect to be able to continue making enough money to compete with the earnings of their big brothers in France when they're only source of income is the Aviva Premiership.

Or you can hope three unions from countries who have a combined population of 15million where rugby is the 2nd most popular sport in two and 4th most popular sport in one to pull a huge TV deal out of the Sky because they're doing everything the English and French are, they just have an audience a fraction of the size...

The best stadium in the competition is owned by a Pro12 side by the way, as is the best academy, the current tournament favourites aren't in the prem or Top14, two French sides and the Irish sides are the only ones with more than two wins and you have the arrogance to say the Pro12 does nothing towards generating money for this competition and that their clubs aren't run as well... Ask the French if they want to watch a European tournament without Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Ospreys or Scarlets, find bigger inter-country rivalries than Leinster-Clermont or Munster-Toulouse in the history of this tournament (fixtures that can sell out finals and semis by the way) and tell me the Pro12 contributes nothing towards generating money in this competition and tell me that the Premiership clubs are better off slowly letting club rugby in these countries die and survive on their own because you'd be showing the short-sightedness and pig-headedness of the PRL, who only a few years ago criticised the Pro12 for not having relegation and are now pushing for a closed shop themselves, if you do. I'd understand your argument from a French perspective, not an English one though because you become the vulnerable ones without us and don't have the leverage of maintaining a competitive European competition. The English clubs need the Pro12 clubs far more than you seem to think.

You're claim in the second to last paragraph is wrong by the way, Amiga addressed that way back, the competing English and French sides got more than any of the union clubs in the old deal.

The comparison to football is also an interesting one, you're advocating doing what they do and hoping for different results. Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets etc... will all die as European powers like Ajax, Benfica, Celtic, Porto, Feynoord etc... have.

I kind of understand wanting everyone to be held to the same standard and be given the same, it does sound nice but it won't work in practice.

 

[munstermuffin]

Can I add too if you ask any club economically who they want to draw it's Munster or Leinster. Like for away games we bring more revenue to hotels bars and all that.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No one but you is mentioning fairness, it's not really relevant in this type of business. If the Pro14 becomes a second tier competition and Europe turns into an Anglo-French competition that France cares even less about the French pull out of Europe, revert back to a Top 16 and and make up a lot of the difference from European rugby because their rugby league doesn't pale in comparison to their football league and hasn't got any other sports to compete with. They have a bigger population, they're fine without Europe, it's completely sustainable for them. Not so much for the English clubs who badly need Europe and therefore the Irish, Welsh and Scottish (Leaving out the Italians as we are literally propping them up in the hope it makes money in the long run) so it is a simple economic decision to keep these clubs competitive. It is an incredibly shortsighted decision for these debt ridden clubs to attempt to maximise earnings now, attempt to buy all the best players from Wales, Scotland and Ireland and expect to be able to continue making enough money to compete with the earnings of their big brothers in France when they're only source of income is the Aviva Premiership.

Or you can hope three unions from countries who have a combined population of 15million where rugby is the 2nd most popular sport in two and 4th most popular sport in one to pull a huge TV deal out of the Sky because they're doing everything the English and French are, they just have an audience a fraction of the size...

The best stadium in the competition is owned by a Pro12 side by the way, as is the best academy, the current tournament favourites aren't in the prem or Top14, two French sides and the Irish sides are the only ones with more than two wins and you have the arrogance to say the Pro12 does nothing towards generating money for this competition and that their clubs aren't run as well... Ask the French if they want to watch a European tournament without Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Ospreys or Scarlets, find bigger inter-country rivalries than Leinster-Clermont or Munster-Toulouse in the history of this tournament (fixtures that can sell out finals and semis by the way) and tell me the Pro12 contributes nothing towards generating money in this competition and tell me that the Premiership clubs are better off slowly letting club rugby in these countries die and survive on their own because you'd be showing the short-sightedness and pig-headedness of the PRL, who only a few years ago criticised the Pro12 for not having relegation and are now pushing for a closed shop themselves, if you do. I'd understand your argument from a French perspective, not an English one though because you become the vulnerable ones without us and don't have the leverage of maintaining a competitive European competition. The English clubs need the Pro12 clubs far more than you seem to think.

You're claim in the second to last paragraph is wrong by the way, Amiga addressed that way back, the competing English and French sides got more than any of the union clubs in the old deal.

The comparison to football is also an interesting one, you're advocating doing what they do and hoping for different results. Leinster, Munster, Ulster, Ospreys, Scarlets etc... will all die as European powers like Ajax, Benfica, Celtic, Porto, Feynoord etc... have.

I kind of understand wanting everyone to be held to the same standard and be given the same, it does sound nice but it won't work in practice.

You say fairness isn't relevant to business? Ok then, how about making money being relevant to business? Is that a legitimate enough reason or are you now going to claim that businesses wanting a larger share of the profit is only right if they are in the Pro12/14? It was a case of the tail wagging the dog with the Heinken cup with those who contributed the least having the most say and dictating the terms. It took the English and French making an ultimatum to pull out to get the Pro 12 to stop being so pig headed because they finally realised the whole thing is propped up by the English and French. English clubs badly need Europe? The Aviva raised less money than the Top 14 yes but not by an unreasonable margin. The Aviva could also survive by itself. the only league that actually needs Europe is the Pro 14. The best Stadium is in the Pro 14? If you're on about the international stadiums that get utilised for some games then that's a bit of a joke point, they aren't the club stadiums and aren't used all the time.

Again you blame the premiership for club rugby dying in other countries, it's laughable. It is NOT our fault if rugby starts dying in YOUR country. This is no different to the SNP attitude of blaming England for everything wrong in Scotland. Also your delusion that it's the Aviva that are the vulnerable one, again right out of the SNP book "England needs Scotland more than Scotland needs England", do you not realise just how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Which stadium is that? The Aviva?
According to wikipedia it's not owned by Leinster, it's 50:50 the IRFU and the FAI

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Which stadium is that? The Aviva?
According to wikipedia it's not owned by Leinster, it's 50:50 the IRFU and the FAI

And which is the best Academy?
Sarries academy has had 4 nominees for World Rugby Player of the year in the last two years.
Quins have had a few Junior nominees as well (Chisholm, Clifford, Ibitoye)

Thomond Park, it has the highest attendance for European rugby every year.

Leinster and the 60+ current pros who started their careers in their academy. 37 in Leinster, 13 in Connacht, 7 in both Ulster and Munster and then a few in the prem and championship. No one is matching that.

The Aviva is owned completely by the IRFU, the FAI just have a long lease type agreement on it after contributing to the construction.

You say fairness isn't relevant to business? Ok then, how about making money being relevant to business? Is that a legitimate enough reason or are you now going to claim that businesses wanting a larger share of the profit is only right if they are in the Pro12/14? It was a case of the tail wagging the dog with the Heinken cup with those who contributed the least having the most say and dictating the terms. It took the English and French making an ultimatum to pull out to get the Pro 12 to stop being so pig headed because they finally realised the whole thing is propped up by the English and French. English clubs badly need Europe? The Aviva raised less money than the Top 14 yes but not by an unreasonable margin. The Aviva could also survive by itself. the only league that actually needs Europe is the Pro 14. The best Stadium is in the Pro 14? If you're on about the international stadiums that get utilised for some games then that's a bit of a joke point, they aren't the club stadiums and aren't used all the time.

Again you blame the premiership for club rugby dying in other countries, it's laughable. It is NOT our fault if rugby starts dying in YOUR country. This is no different to the SNP attitude of blaming England for everything wrong in Scotland. Also your delusion that it's the Aviva that are the vulnerable one, again right out of the SNP book "England needs Scotland more than Scotland needs England", do you not realise just how ridiculous that sounds?

You're clearly so blinded by bias there's no point talking to you, you didn't read a word I wrote, have no understanding of the business approach I suggested or how the old tournament was run and this post looks incredibly foolish...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thomand Park is owned by the IRFU not Munster, though.
I suppose the irfu own Munster, so it's semantics I guess.

I took the academy part out after rethinking
I'd say Sarries academy is up there, though, considering they've got several other rugby academies to contend with in the area (plus a huge amount of football clubs).
I was thinking more quality vs numbers (obviously not saying Leinster produces muck, But Sarries academy is on fire recently)

 

[curtbob7]

Thomond Park, it has the highest attendance for European rugby every year.

Leinster and the 60+ current pros who started their careers in their academy. 37 in Leinster, 13 in Connacht, 7 in both Ulster and Munster and then a few in the prem and championship. No one is matching that.

The Aviva is owned completely by the IRFU, the FAI just have a long lease type agreement on it after contributing to the construction.

You're clearly so blinded by bias there's no point talking to you, you didn't read a word I wrote, have no understanding of the business approach I suggested or how the old tournament was run and this post looks incredibly foolish...

Ohhhhh the Thomond Park that is owned by the Union?

Attendance-wise Munster don't exactly smash it every year anyway. Tigers push it very close considering we actually have other rugby teams in the area and not to mention the amount of football teams too.

 

[curtbob7]

Can I add too if you ask any club economically who they want to draw it's Munster or Leinster. Like for away games we bring more revenue to hotels bars and all that.

Might have something to do with the traveler population though..

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ohhhhh the Thomond Park that is owned by the Union?

Attendance-wise Munster don't exactly smash it every year anyway. Tigers push it very close considering we actually have other rugby teams in the area and not to mention the amount of football teams too.

Who cares who owns it? The Munster branch funded it and suffered because of it and it's a club stadium... Leicester also have a population twice the size of Limerick and it's not as if rugby is the biggest sport in Limerick, Hurling and Garlic Football are far bigger, not that that matters because Tigers are still behind. Leinster are actually the side that sell the most tickets in the group stages but I imagine the smart decision of playing a December game in Lansdowne and marketing the game to sell 40,000 doesn't count as a club being run well because we're in this particular thread and Leinster aren't riddled with debt, operating on a loss and are the favourites in Europe without a millionaire backer like all those brilliantly run clubs in England?

The Irish clubs are doing far more with far less than the English clubs, the Scots are catching up with even less resources while the Welsh are a bit of a shambles, no one is asking for as much as the English or French but just enough to be able to keep most of our best players in our country to keep the most entertaining club rugby tournament in the world from dying, it is literally in the long term interest of every single party. It is amazing that no one is copping that in this thread.

 

[curtbob7]

Who cares who owns it? The Munster branch funded it and suffered because of it and it's a club stadium... Leicester also have a population twice the size of Limerick and it's not as if rugby is the biggest sport in Limerick, Hurling and Garlic Football are far bigger, not that that matters because Tigers are still behind. Leinster are actually the side that sell the most tickets in the group stages but I imagine the smart decision of playing a December game in Lansdowne and marketing the game to sell 40,000 doesn't count as a club being run well because we're in this particular thread and Leinster aren't riddled with debt, operating on a loss and are the favourites in Europe without a millionaire backer like all those brilliantly run clubs in England?

The Irish clubs are doing far more with far less than the English clubs, the Scots are catching up with even less resources while the Welsh are a bit of a shambles, no one is asking for as much as the English or French but just enough to be able to keep most of our best players in our country to keep the most entertaining club rugby tournament in the world from dying, it is literally in the long term interest of every single party. It is amazing that no one is copping that in this thread.

Tigers aren't exactly light years behind really though with averages between 21-23K over the past few years despite Wasps turning up on their doorstep and stealing a few Nuneaton, Rugby, Coventry and Hinckley fans (its actually happening, ive seen it).

With regards to your 'brilliantly ran' comment. I agree with you. Apart from Saints and Tigers I don't know of any English side that can label themselves sustainable.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aren't Leicester one of the clubs that turn a profit*, and sell out most games...?
It's easy to say "our club gets more" when you've a bigger stadium to host big games at - if Leicester could play their big games at a 50k seater they'd have a higher average gate too.

Who cares who owns it?

You?

The best stadium in the competition is owned by a Pro12 side by the way

*Maybe not last year because of the new stand/pitch, but every other year they're always at the top of the turnover/profits list.

 

[curtbob7]

Thanks for that Oly. 2 Years running we've actually made small losses because of the stand, hotel plans, coach pay-offs and lack of a home semi final in the Aviva.