[EOYT] Wales v Tonga 22/11/2013

[Ospreylian]

I'm generally pretty pleased with that team. Obviously keeping North and Halfpenny in the mix is a risk, but at the same time Wales don't want to suffer another defeat at the hands of a pacific island team, so a degree of balance is needed when you're introducing youngsters like Amos.

Quite a few of these players will be desperate to put their hands up and try and show the management what they are capable of. Charteris and especially Evans need to prove they are ready to compete for the other starting lock position alongside AWJ, Tipuric needs to put in another solid performance to show he deserves to be starting regularly, Lloyd Williams needs to have a good game to silence his recent critics, and the same goes for Beck.

Does Priestland being on the bench mean Biggar is starting the Aus game? I damn well hope so. Never deserved to lose his place. But at the same time, I know this Welsh management show a strange loyalty to Priestland over other fly halves, so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Thingimubob]

I'm quite pleased with this side! I'm a fan of Amos from both his u20s days and his performances for the Dragons, and I've got faith he'll step up just like Allen did.
Also I hope Jordan Williams gets a good run out, guessing he'll replace one of North or Halfpenny depending how the games going come the 50 - 60 minute mark.
Only worry I have is it doesn't look like they'll do the Warburton - Tipuric partnership vs Australia, since Justin is starting this week. Really think we could do with those two starting and Lydiate off the bench to close things down at the end.

 

[psychic duck]

What has Amos done to get a start?

Yet another in Gatland's obsession about selecting wingers just out of school. He'll move onto the next star of the Welsh schools cup next year. North is the only kid winger that worked, and he actually had built some pedigree at regional level.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Ok then Duck ... who do you recommend should play?

 

[Draggs]

What has Amos done to get a start?

Yet another in Gatland's obsession about selecting wingers just out of school. He'll move onto the next star of the Welsh schools cup next year. North is the only kid winger that worked, and he actually had built some pedigree at regional level.

Compared to his predecessors Howells, North, Prydie, Phillips, he has a relative wealth of experience. The bench worries me, as well as a flying Tongan into any of our backs.

 

[Thingimubob]

What has Amos done to get a start?

Yet another in Gatland's obsession about selecting wingers just out of school. He'll move onto the next star of the Welsh schools cup next year. North is the only kid winger that worked, and he actually had built some pedigree at regional level.

He hasn't been playing badly though has he, he's been on pretty good form so far, scored a few good tries for the Dragons, and was outstanding for the u20s (same u20s side that other members of the squad stood out in)
What with all the injuries, the only other option for this game instead of him would be Robinson, who I'd say was a bit unlucky to be dropped. That said, I'd say his form has been on par with Amos too this season, so not a huge loss if you ask me.

 

[psychic duck]

He hasn't been playing badly though has he, he's been on pretty good form so far, scored a few good tries for the Dragons, and was outstanding for the u20s (same u20s side that other members of the squad stood out in)
What with all the injuries, the only other option for this game instead of him would be Robinson, who I'd say was a bit unlucky to be dropped. That said, I'd say his form has been on par with Amos too this season, so not a huge loss if you ask me.

The U20's are a terrible basis to judge a player's merits at adult international on. Some of those players are 5 years away from peaking others have already peaked. Gareth Owen looked decent at U20 level. You need to have a decent look at them at regional level, what's Amos done with the Dragons as yet?

Harry Robinson was one of the few players who did quite well in Japan, and has developed into a regional starter (even though he himself was capped before he was ready as well). Him starting with Jordan Williams would be okay. Although to be honest I'm not in favour of ditching the older fringe players like Byrne completely either.

Gatland has a track record of making a mess of these games. Canada 2008, Samoa 2009, Fiji 2010 (the nadir of his time in charge), Japan 2012. There's hardly one good performance between those games. Bringing in youngsters is a process, not an annual event. A solid foundation of a team is a far better base for players to be bedded in rather than playing in a side with a dozen untried combinations and half backs who can't control a game. Biggar and Warburton should be in the team to offer control and leadership.

 

[SelimNiai]

Way to support the guy.

I hope he scores a brace in a good performance just so we can see those words from you afterwards;

"I was wrong about Amos"

 

[Ospreylian]

Gatland has a track record of making a mess of these games. Canada 2008, Samoa 2009, Fiji 2010 (the nadir of his time in charge), Japan 2012. There's hardly one good performance between those games. Bringing in youngsters is a process, not an annual event. A solid foundation of a team is a far better base for players to be bedded in rather than playing in a side with a dozen untried combinations and half backs who can't control a game. Biggar and Warburton should be in the team to offer control and leadership.

By "Japan 2012" I'm assuming you meant 2013, i.e. the summer tour to Japan? Because that was hardly Gatland's fault to be fair, as he was away on Lions duty. The management fielded a 2nd/3rd string team for those games. I mean, come on, what do you expect when the likes of Jon Spratt, Scott Andrews, Lou Reed and Dafydd Howells are lining up in a team together? Hardly a team that is even going to compete regularly with the minnows (especially Japan, who can play a class game of rugby tbf).

Also, the control and leadership you want to see will come from Hook, Ryan Jones, Evans, Charteris, Tipuric, Halfpenny, and North. It's certainly not a team full of U20s, like it has been in past games against the Pacific Islanders. Ryan Jones has captained Wales the most of any player ever, so if he can't lead a team yet then he shouldn't be playing rugby anymore. I think he'll do a fine job, as he always does for his country.

 

[psychic duck]

By "Japan 2012" I'm assuming you meant 2013, i.e. the summer tour to Japan? Because that was hardly Gatland's fault to be fair, as he was away on Lions duty. The management fielded a 2nd/3rd string team for those games. I mean, come on, what do you expect when the likes of Jon Spratt, Scott Andrews, Lou Reed and Dafydd Howells are lining up in a team together? Hardly a team that is even going to compete regularly with the minnows (especially Japan, who can play a class game of rugby tbf).

Also, the control and leadership you want to see will come from Hook, Ryan Jones, Evans, Charteris, Tipuric, Halfpenny, and North. It's certainly not a team full of U20s, like it has been in past games against the Pacific Islanders. Ryan Jones has captained Wales the most of any player ever, so if he can't lead a team yet then he shouldn't be playing rugby anymore. I think he'll do a fine job, as he always does for his country.

2008, 2009 and 2010 all saw similar sort of teams for the Friday game, as did the 2009 6 Nations game with Italy. All of which ended up being poor games. This has been seen numerous times under Gatland. And there is no way Hook is control, never has been and never will be and starting him at 10 is a wasted spot for the actual long term contenders for the jersey. The Wales half backs are both players capable of their moments but with no substance. There are numerous partnerships and players who are either untested, inexperienced even at regional level and a couple just not very good.

It seems most here have forgotten the totally messy rugby the Friday night team has delivered in the past. It predates Gatland actually, Fiji 2005 was another shambles.

And regarding Japan, interesting that most are now saying "what do you expect with that team". I seem to remember most were saying 20 or 30 point victories minimum before the games.

 

[j'nuh]

The vast majority of this squad is made up of players that have a good amount of rugby experience. The rookies are Owen Williams, Amos and Rhodri, and even these players are only starting because of injuries to the likes of J. Davies/Roberts, Cuthbert/Dirksen/Walker and Mitchell.

In terms of the Welsh half-backs... who can actually control a game other than Phillips-Biggar? I think protecting them from the likes of Fonua and Kalamafoni is the right choice, so that they are fit and ready for Australia.

 

[Thingimubob]

Really do not see this team being anything like some of the terrible ones we've put out I the past!
Front row has two players who're easily competing for 1st XV spot and integral parts of the 23 anyway, second row and 2/3 of the back row are exactly the same (coombs a very capable back up too). That pack alone can give us the platform to win anyway. Plenty of experience in the backline too, including two of our Lions superstars!
Stop being such a grump Psychic!

 

[psychic duck]

Really do not see this team being anything like some of the terrible ones we've put out I the past!
Front row has two players who're easily competing for 1st XV spot and integral parts of the 23 anyway, second row and 2/3 of the back row are exactly the same (coombs a very capable back up too). That pack alone can give us the platform to win anyway. Plenty of experience in the backline too, including two of our Lions superstars!
Stop being such a grump Psychic!

Actually Thingimubob. Apart from the locks, the Fiji lineup in 2010 was slightly stronger than this one (http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/116982.html).

By the way, I'm talking about performance not necessarily about win/loss. Gatland has been doing these teams on Friday nights for all his time in charge and every single time it has resulted in a horrible game. Remember the Italy game in 2009 where Gethin, Adam, Wellies, Nugget and Ryan were rested? We won, but it was not a performance to take much positive from.

To be honest these games have been more use in finding out and culling those not good enough than developing anyone. In that game's case it was the end of Rhys Thomas' career. The Fiji game saw a number see their international careers end or forced out. The Japan tour saw the last of McCusker's caps.

I hope I'm wrong, but I just can't forget past games of this type. There are a number of things that could go wrong in this game.

In terms of the Welsh half-backs... who can actually control a game other than Phillips-Biggar? I think protecting them from the likes of Fonua and Kalamafoni is the right choice, so that they are fit and ready for Australia.

Phillips and Biggar would have been my choice. Wouldn't have minded Priestland either. But I dislike the Hook selection, he's had his chance at 10 and is never going to be first choice there with his weaknesses so it's a wasted pick. I've said this numerous times but I want the Hook at centre from 2010 back, that's his position and that should have been that back at the time.

 

[Draggs]

Italy 2009 was a Saturday I believe, France was the Friday one. 2010 was France as well, with England the year after.
Last Friday match we did decent in was v Canada in 2006. That Italy match was the 'Andy Powell' one.

One of our biggest issues v Fiji was Bennett being dire, we couldn't even touch our own lineout ball. Owens is far superior.

 

[psychic duck]

Italy 2009 was a Saturday I believe, France was the Friday one. 2010 was France as well, with England the year after.
Last Friday match we did decent in was v Canada in 2006. That Italy match was the 'Andy Powell' one.

One of our biggest issues v Fiji was Bennett being dire, we couldn't even touch our own lineout ball. Owens is far superior.

Yes, but I meant Italy as in Gatland tried similar with the team lineup. Rhys Thomas (the **** prop version) and Powell had particularly appalling games.

 

[Thingimubob]

Actually Thingimubob. Apart from the locks, the Fiji lineup in 2010 was slightly stronger than this one (http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/116982.html).

I'm not convinced it was.
Owens now > Bennett then (as Draggs said, horrific throwing and their try came from a dodgy line out from us I think)

Ryan > Jon Thomas (I never was a fan)

Tipuric > relatively inexperienced Lydiate at 7

(That entire back row was horribly balanced with three 6s, plus Ryan had a horrible game, possibly his worst in a Welsh shirt.)

Beck > Bishop - lose a little in defense but gain so much in attack!

North now > North then - he's turned into one of the finest players in the world since then

Amos ~ Brew - obviously can't say Amos is better, but won't be hard for him to offer more than Brew did in this game!

Both second rows hands down smash Deiniol Jones and an aging, off form, Gough outright.

Out of the rest I'd say Fullback, no.10 (as in Biggar back then vs Hook now - both 3rd choice in their respective squads) and Loose head are equal. Tighthead, no.13, SH and 6 are the only stronger positions from that Fiji game imo. Even there we've picked good/promising players, with the exception of Rhodri Jones who's lucky to be ahead of Lee.

I understand the point you're making, and I agree with you about the other dodgy 2nd team selections (I actually thought straight away we stood a chance to lose vs Japan after seeing the starting 15s of both games). This is one of the best ones we've picked in quite a while if you ask me!

 

[Jaguares]

Then Wales will show the new Away kit, right?

 

[Ospreylian]

Phillips and Biggar would have been my choice. Wouldn't have minded Priestland either. But I dislike the Hook selection, he's had his chance at 10 and is never going to be first choice there with his weaknesses so it's a wasted pick. I've said this numerous times but I want the Hook at centre from 2010 back, that's his position and that should have been that back at the time.

I agree with you to some degree that Hook's best position internationally was outside centre. He had some superb games there. But with Patchell injured, perhaps the coaches want to make absolutely sure they'll have both Biggar and Preistland fit and uninjured for the crucial Australia game. There is no playing down that game - at this point it really is a must-win game. The pressure is immense after having lost to Australia this many times in such a short space of time. So I think they're putting Hook in there to save Biggar and Priestland, as Hook obviously won't be available for the Aus game.

I honestly don't think this is a weak side, at all:

James - Some believe he is a better scrummager than Jenkins, and from what I hear has had a great season in the premiership.
Owens - Almost on par with Hibbard in terms of sheer grit, determination and passion. Arguably better in the line-out.
Jones - Really held his own against Argentina. I was very impressed, I have to say. Obviously going to be a weakness in areas though, purely because of lack of experience. But playing alongside Owens and James will make up for that.
Charteris - wasn't too long ago some were saying he should be a starting lock for Wales again, and had a great world cup.
Evans - Returning from injury, but we all know he is a class player when on form, and a starter in the regular line-up
Coombs - Has impressed in a Wales jersey, gives us good go-forward ball. Underrated.
Tipuric - Well.... Tipuric
Jones - a fantastic captain, and also gets Wales moving forward.
Williams - One of the (perhaps) off-form selections, but having said that, he always seems to put in a good performance for his country even if not for club
Hook - Yes, he's playing 10 again, but I'll trust those who claim he is having a great season at Perpignan. Is potentially more of a spark from the midfield than Biggar or Priestland
Amos - A risk, but one worth taking imo. It's not as if he's a Dafydd Howells - he has a fair bit of experience at regional level now
Beck - I am a huge fan. Even with him being slightly off form for Ospreys he has done well coming off the bench for Wales, and is a fantastic blitz defender (as Scrum V taught us)
Williams - Another risk, but he does well in open play - something we'll hopefully see a lot of against a side like Tonga
North - North
Halfpenny - Halfpenny

 

[TRF_Olyy]

James - Some believe he is a better scrummager than Jenkins

There are people who think Jenkins is a better scrummager than James?!

 

[j'nuh]

There are people who think Jenkins is a better scrummager than James?!

I guess people who still value honesty in the scrum?