[EOYT] England vs New Zealand 16/11/13

[admartian]

I love how if we lost the match and blamed the referee - we'd be called sore losers. We won the match and many people genuinely thought the referee was shocking, and we're still somehow bitter?

The referee was inconsistant. I'm not making claims he was bias etc, I'm just saying England got away with a hell of a lot this match. Obstructions, players diving off their feet every breakdown, off-sides. I'm a Craig Joubert fan - but in my opinion he had a shocker. It wasn't a great match in my opinion because of the refereeing errors, where you probably feel it was because they allowed England to be so competitive.

Anyway, my thoughts on the match besides the refereeing.

1. Tony Woodcock - Did a reasonable job before coming off at half time. Scrum struggled early but overall did okay. 6.5/10
2. Keven Mealamu- One of his better games, seems to be coming into good form. Lineout throws were all good and his work on the ground was one of the best for the ABs. 7.5/10
3. Owen Franks - For some reason I'm becoming more and more concerned with his scrummaging, seems he hasn't entirely recovered as Marler isn't known as a ferocious scrummager. He made some very solid tackles though and took the right options with his break. 6.5/10.
4. Brodie Retallick - A very quiet game from Retallick. He was dominant in the lineout but otherwise was very quiet. 6/10.
5. Sam Whitelock - A big game for Whitelock. 19 tackles and won all his own linouts. Gave away a few penalties but can probably be forgiven. 8/10.
6. Liam Messam - I thought he had a pretty quiet game. Didn't seem to be able to out muscle the English forwards like I'd have hoped. 6.5/10.
7. Richie McCaw - A very strong game from McCaw. Got a few turnovers and made the second most tackles again with 15. Seemed to keep the team composed as well. 8/10.
8. Kieran Read - His stats show why he is rated by many as the best player in the world. Other than his yellow card which may would feel was unlucky - and that rare dropped ball - he was once again magnificant. 8.5/10

9. Aaron Smith - Solid game but I do get frustrated with his box kicking. It's either never far enough for there to be any great advantage to risk a turnover or it's just pretty aimless. Overall I thought our kicking game was just overused this match. Smith only ran the ball once this game, which there was more oppertunity to do so than that. Other than that he was fine, his defense was generally pretty good before austingtir complains as he tackled at around 85% - and his passing was generally good. 6.5/10.
10. Daniel Carter - Looked good while he was on. Part of me was thinking in the leadup to the match that he'd get injured early as seems to be his thing now. Kicked well while he was on and ran the backline nicely. 6.5/10.
11. Julain Savea - I agree with the MoTM (although Mike Brown was up there). Ran more metres with ball in hand than any other player on the field, got two tries, three clean breaks, two offloads and two turnovers. Looked dangerous when ever he backed himself. His missed a few tackles - but to be fair he attempted tackles he had little chance of getting and usually put the oposing player under pressure for support to arrive. 8.5/10.
12. Ma'a Nonu - Actually had a big day defensively which is good after the France test. Great try assist but is still kicking generally too much for my liking (although he did a nice one to get us out of pressure). 7/10.
13. Ben Smith - Tidy enough game, certainly wasn't outstanding by any means. Didn't seem to threaten much but didn't get much ball either. 6/10.
14. Charles Piatau - Thought he had a good game. Was good when he was asked to make a tackle he made it, a nice bit of work in the air. Generally looked dangerous with the ball. Again more kicking than I like. 7.5/10.
15. Israel Dagg - An alright game but would prefer he backed himself more often. As it is he only made one tackle, so chances are he could have joined the line more in attack. Got some nice turnovers though. 6.5/10.

16. Dane Coles - Did reasonably well when he came on. Scrum went well enough and he made no errors. 7/10.
17. Wyatt Crockett - Only gave away one penalty which is a record for him. Overall he actually played pretty well, with the scrum holding up nicely in the end. 7/10.
18. Charlie Faumuina - Beginning to feel more comfortable with the idea of him starting after a poor performance earlier in the year against the Boks. The scrum looked to improve when he came on while his work in the loose was good. 7.5/10
19. Luke Romano - Had an unexceptional 15 minutes but probably to be expected coming back. I have to admit I'd prefer almost every other current AB lock than Romano - with that said the scrum worked well during that 15 minutes (although the improvements came before then). 5.5/10.
20. Steven Luatua - I thought looked pretty explosive when he came on. Seemed to hit rucks hard and got over the gainline and provided quick ball when he ran. 7/10
21. Tawera Kerr-Barlow - Have to admit I groaned when he came on, but we needed good defense and he provided that. His passes were quick although he still spends too long at a ruck. Probably his best game for the ABs though. I desperately want Peranara to start next game! 7.5/10.
22. Ryan Crotty - Made three tackles. Was only on 9 minutes so can't really be too critical or give too much praise. 6.5/10.

For England I thought Mike Brown had a very, very game. Looked very composed and was dangerous with ball in hand. Him, Yarde and Wade could be a very exciting backline. Farrell is a total prat with a face I'd like to drop a refrigerator on., but he generally controlled the game well. Vunipola was impressive for England. Justin Marshall was criticizing how he was hold the ball not looking for an offload - but to be honest any made more metres than any other England player because NZ kept kicking the ball to him, and he gave England good go forward ball. His work on the ground was also good for a man of his size. England's lineout got pillaged by the AB's and while Hartley was pretty unexceptional for England (4 runs for 2 metres and tackled at 66%!) Tom Youngs was even worse and didn't even provide a good setpiece! Morgan came on and made good impact for a second week.

Always like your reviews Nick.

With Nonu, I think there were 2-3 moments where they're a bit Derp - 1 being a panic tip pass (albeit a hospital pass form Aaron Smith) to his outside man but there was an Englishman there that caught it (and would've been a try had it not been for the off-side in the other part of the field); and other times where he would kick when we had better momentum running it. Plus, he doesn't kick well enough regularly enough, and the ones that do come off, are fluky, that it's just a waste of time imo. But otherwise big on defense.

Savea had a monster game and he's just so powerful on the first tackle. He'll usually shrug off the first 2 tacklers unless a forward is involved. Very dangerous and I wish we used him more and ran him around the filed a bit more instead of just being overly-predictable and using him wide (almost exclusively?).

Piutau had some good runs I thought and looked strong and up to the occasion. Also I think guys like Rattue are a bit harsh on Ben Smith - saying he's lost his mojo. I disagree. While he hasn't scored tries at 13, they have to remember that his responsibilities are different now. ANd when he has been used offensively, he's threatened. Still, he's no Conrad at that position, but he's still just getting used to it at this level.

I think it's time to use Messam and Luatua more as a tag team (mainly to give Luatua more game time) - heck he's proven himself against SA and AU, I don't see why not.

Also, I'm slightly ocnecerednat the form of Aaron Cruden, and the fragility of Dan Carter (recently). For now, I'll chalk it up to two very inspired sides, but Cruden has really been very average lately.

 

[smartcooky]

With Nonu, I think there were 2-3 moments where they're a bit Derp - 1 being a panic tip pass (albeit a hospital pass form Aaron Smith) to his outside man but there was an Englishman there that caught it (and would've been a try had it not been for the off-side in the other part of the field);.

With that type of incident, when you use the seemingly logical reasoning that "if not for thing "A" happening, thing "B" might have happened" , just keep in mind that the offside penalty can often change everything that happens afterwards. Offside players around the fringes of rucks and mauls definitely affect the decision making of the play-makers.

1. If not for the offside, the play might have broken from the previous phase to the left, down the blindside, and not to the openside (right).

2. If not for the offside, the intercepting player may not have even been in a position to intercept.

3. Nonu might have been aware that the AB's had penalty advantage, and was prepared to try a normally low-percentage play on the off chance that it might come off, knowing that they would be coming back if it went wrong.

 

[LittleGuy]

If his summation of the game is boring to you - try another forum which doesn't discuss the game. Saying 'Yaaaawwwwnnnnn" makes you sound like a petulant tw*t.

I think he's just sick of the moaning about the referee, not about the rest of the summation.

Edit: I don't even know why this is still going to be frank, never heard so much complaining when a team came away victorious, did NZ need a 15 point away win for extra IRB world ranking points? There is literally nothing on the line otherwise.

 

[smartcooky]

I think he's just sick of the moaning about the referee, not about the rest of the summation.

Edit: I don't even know why this is still going to be frank, never heard so much complaining when a team came away victorious, did NZ need a 15 point away win for extra IRB world ranking points? There is literally nothing on the line otherwise.

As a poster with a substantial part of my focus on the Laws of the Game and Refereeing. I complain about sub-standard refereeing mostly because I want the overall standard of refereeing to be improved, in just the same way that other posters with their focus on the game and the players, want to see the standard of play and the skill level of players improved.

 

[Chikwa]

As a poster with a substantial part of my focus on the Laws of the Game and Refereeing. I complain about sub-standard refereeing mostly because I want the overall standard of refereeing to be improved, in just the same way that other posters with their focus on the game and the players, want to see the standard of play and the skill level of players improved.

Agreed it definitely needs to be improved and monitored I such way they are consistent in their application of the law and impartial

 

[nickdnz]

I think he's just sick of the moaning about the referee, not about the rest of the summation.

Edit: I don't even know why this is still going to be frank, never heard so much complaining when a team came away victorious, did NZ need a 15 point away win for extra IRB world ranking points? There is literally nothing on the line otherwise.

Either way it's rude - especially as I remember certain members wouldn't stop whinging after a loss in 2011 and blaming Joubert.

70% of the complaints about refereeing, are moaning about kiwis moaning - most from English posters.

As it is, no there was nothing on the line other than winning and we won. That's really besides the point. I'd be more annoyed if this was a match we lost because of the refereeing, as it would look like sour grapes when we complain. We won, but the lack of consistency in terms of refereeing partially ruined the game for me. I'm not claiming any kind of conspiracy or bias - just that as a match it was particularly poorly refereed in a way which the All Blacks were unlucky with how inconsistant the calls were. Seems like we're supposed to say "brilliant refereeing!" based on the fact we won, but I think there would have been a much better spectacle had we seen the game played with a consistant application of the laws.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is moaning the new TRF trigger word, like "arrogant" was before?

 

[nickdnz]

Is moaning the new TRF trigger word, like "arrogant" was before?

You arrogant moaner Olyy.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

If we want to see good rugby we must go back a few years when break down laws were actually implemented. I can't see any problem with raising the issue. Yes, McCaw has gotten away with murder a lot of times, that is besides the point. Yes, NZ won, that is also besides the point.

 

[Sam Owen]

Is moaning the new TRF trigger word, like "arrogant" was before?

Yep if your TRF stands for The Reff Failed.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The posts here are very ironic...

It doesn't happen often that the winning team's member ***** about the ref, and the losing team doesn't...

Has that ever happen before?? And the best of all is, that this is the same ref that blew the 2011 World Cup final...

 

[Tony Manx]

I think he's just sick of the moaning about the referee, not about the rest of the summation.

Correct as always!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I don't blame the English forwards cor carters injury I think carter made a mistake taking the forwards on the way he did so early in the game, he put himself in a position with an increased injury risk for him.

That's not what you said in your original post:

Originally Posted by Larksea

Gutted carter came off early, he is still better than Cruden and barrett. I don't think hes more injury prone now I think hes just been unlucky and probably took on a group of big forwards that were keen to hurt him too early in the game.

As Hansen said this injury has been "rumbling" on for awhile so it sounds like he had this problem before the game, which brings into question why he was selected if not 100% fit. If he plays then how can he really hold back if there is a tackle to be made; that just can't be in the mindset of any rugby player, otherwise why be on the field in the first place.

As Andrew Hore has been quoted as saying " aren't we allowed to tackle Dan Carter?" ;0). At the end of the day he will be targeted legally or illegally next time he plays because they know that he's made of glass now; so if he takes the field he can't really not put himself at the risk of injury, otherwise he can't concentrate on playing his game and making decisions, he would constantly be thinking he better not make that tackle etc because he might get injured. That would never be in his mind otherwise he should not be on the field.

 

[austingtir]

The posts here are very ironic...

It doesn't happen often that the winning team's member ***** about the ref, and the losing team doesn't...

Has that ever happen before?? And the best of all is, that this is the same ref that blew the 2011 World Cup final...

All it proves is that even the best ref we have available can make mistakes. Joubert is without doubt the best ref getting around. He made an absolute meal of this match though.

I think the int refereeing panel still has **** loads to work on. Its not just NZ that have been suckered by a reff this year... the best thing about it is we were still good enough to win the game so its pretty funny how everyone is acting like we are sore winners now.

 

[TRF_heineken]

All it proves is that even the best ref we have available can make mistakes. Joubert is without doubt the best ref getting around. He made an absolute meal of this match though.

I think the int refereeing panel still has **** loads to work on. Its not just NZ that have been suckered by a reff this year... the best thing about it is we were still good enough to win the game so its pretty funny how everyone is acting like we are sore winners now.

Believe me!! us Saffas know!!

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

What was the last big match refereed by Joubert where he refereed well?

 

[TRF_heineken]

What was the last big match refereed by Joubert where he refereed well?

That would be Australia vs. New Zealand in Sydney on the 17th of August 2013...

 

[smartcooky]

either way it's rude - especially as i remember certain members wouldn't stop whinging after a loss in 2011 and blaming joubert.

70% of the complaints about refereeing, are moaning about kiwis moaning - most from english posters.

As it is, no there was nothing on the line other than winning and we won. That's really besides the point. I'd be more annoyed if this was a match we lost because of the refereeing, as it would look like sour grapes when we complain. We won, but the lack of consistency in terms of refereeing partially ruined the game for me. I'm not claiming any kind of conspiracy or bias - just that as a match it was particularly poorly refereed in a way which the all blacks were unlucky with how inconsistant the calls were. Seems like we're supposed to say "brilliant refereeing!" based on the fact we won, but i think there would have been a much better spectacle had we seen the game played with a consistant application of the [strike]rules[/strike] Laws.

^^^ this

 

[Icemn]

WTF is up with dagg

some might think he is still one of the best fullbacks if not the best... but this is not the dagg I know...

he is 30% at best now... he kicks the whole time and most of them are useless and only handing possession back to the opposing team

its like dagg is Zane kirscher without the hair

is dagg carrying an injury? low on confidence or wtf???

i'm seeing too many kicks and hardly any runs... not only in this match, but I've been watching him for some time now...

so dagg??? WTF???

 

[Chikwa]

WTF is up with dagg

some might think he is still one of the best fullbacks if not the best... but this is not the dagg I know...

he is 30% at best now... he kicks the whole time and most of them are useless and only handing possession back to the opposing team

its like dagg is Zane kirscher without the hair

is dagg carrying an injury? low on confidence or wtf???

i'm seeing too many kicks and hardly any runs... not only in this match, but I've been watching him for some time now...

so dagg??? WTF???

You certainly are too the point . I agree with you.Though Against England his game improved. You clearly cannot run all the time but he has the talent to have an imposing kicking game which we are not seeing . His running game is not what we know he is capable of. With cory Jane , Ben smith on good form and the emergence of Piatau he will have to show case his talents .Competition inspires performance.