English Union proposes compensation from Unions aggressively pursuing eligibilty rules

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It's not as if the IRFU, WRU and SRU are driving kids out of the country... Basically England should benefit from their large population, large number of immigrants and get compensated by those smaller countries who's immigrants you directly benefit from when they take one or two back? Do you want 15 point head starts and an extra man with that?

who cares if teams use their diaspora in their national side?

but it is unfair that a club gets money for producing an english player but if they play somewhere else they don't... that needs to be fixed

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The money comes from the RFU, though.

Like I said: if the IRFU or whoever wants to put some funding into our academies then they can have some of the results of our time and effort.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's not as if the IRFU, WRU and SRU are driving kids out of the country... Basically England should benefit from their large population, large number of immigrants and get compensated by those smaller countries who's immigrants you directly benefit from when they take one or two back? Do you want 15 point head starts and an extra man with that?

Er once they are here they are as much a part of our country as anyone else. Again the issue is with aggressive scouting of another country. People come here first and then we look at using them after, other nations look at who they want and then try to get them into the country second. Ours is a passive process, the others are an active process. There is no hypocrisy because we are not engaging in active poaching of players. Ultimately they come here of their own accord (if adults) or come here young and thus are a product of our academies. If you had players who went through your systems, your clubs, your academies and then another nation came along and just offered them caps straight away I don't imagine you'd like it. I think you are forgetting the primary target is England but what is to stop the scouts going after young Irish players? Particularly those in Northern Ireland will have Scottish ancestry.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Er once they are here they are as much a part of our country as anyone else. Again the issue is with aggressive scouting of another country. People come here first and then we look at using them after, other nations look at who they want and then try to get them into the country second. Ours is a passive process, the others are an active process. There is no hypocrisy because we are not engaging in active poaching of players. Ultimately they come here of their own accord (if adults) or come here young and thus are a product of our academies. If you had players who went through your systems, your clubs, your academies and then another nation came along and just offered them caps straight away I don't imagine you'd like it. I think you are forgetting the primary target is England but what is to stop the scouts going after young Irish players? Particularly those in Northern Ireland will have Scottish ancestry.

We're talking about players of dual nationality here, some of them as Irish as I am... They're offered the opportunity to play elsewhere to be in with a chance of playing for that country and choose to do so. These are scouts employed to look at players in England, not kidnappers. Again, if a kid has dreams of playing for England over anyone else he won't accept this call, Dallaglio didn't, Johnson didn't. If we were robbing 15 year olds with no heritage and nationalising them it'd be different but we're just finding lads who we'd have anyway if there was as many jobs in London as there were in Dublin.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

We're talking about players of dual nationality here, some of them as Irish as I am... They're offered the opportunity to play elsewhere to be in with a chance of playing for that country and choose to do so. These are scouts employed to look at players in England, not kidnappers. Again, if a kid has dreams of playing for England over anyone else he won't accept this call, Dallaglio didn't, Johnson didn't. If we were robbing 15 year olds with no heritage and nationalising them it'd be different but we're just finding lads who we'd have anyway if there was as many jobs in London as there were in Dublin.

We are talking about players of dual nationality in another country, the final part is the distinction you are repeatedly missing... Can you name any players England specifically enticed over to play for England as opposed to those who were already in England and were simply offered the chance after they had been here long enough?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

We are talking about players of dual nationality in another country, the final part is the distinction you are repeatedly missing...

It's immaterial though, they're still as Irish/Scottish/Welsh as they are English sometimes more so sometimes less, the latter won't move.

 

[Groundhog]

Alpha Bro has two parents from the United Kingdom, just throwing it out there.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

We are talking about players of dual nationality in another country, the final part is the distinction you are repeatedly missing... Can you name any players England specifically enticed over to play for England as opposed to those who were already in England and were simply offered the chance after they had been here long enough?

and when the rules of international rugby state that you have to play for the country that you live in/grew up in we can chastise these countries... but right now they are doing what's best for their team

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think if you told Farrell he was as Irish as he is English he'd probably drop you.

Nathan Fowles has one Scottish grandparent, He came through the English academy system and played age grade for England, Edinburgh came along and said come to us and we'll guarantee you international rugby, and now, after minimal game time he's in the Scotland squad.
He's nowhere near as Scottish as the likes of Hogg etc

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Professional game, significant money and jobs are involved so all bets are off. Boundaries will be pushed, rules tested.

I don't like what's going on, but you can't blame any union for doing their utmost to put out the strongest team they can under the rules in force at that time. It's up to the governing body to make sure the rules are fit for purpose.

 

[welshglory]

What's pathetic is the national unions complaining about clubs ruining the global game in the name of self interest when they are obviously doing the same thing by picking these types of players, as well as monopolising the international calendar. At least the clubs are honest about it and don't bullshit the way the likes of ireland and Scotland do.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Moriarty obviously has the Welsh international family, but was born and raised in England, came through the English academy system and played all the age grades here.
Tom Francis, Alex Cuthbert,
Jake Ball (though via a stint in Australia)

There's plenty that were born in England but raised in Wales (Amos, Davies, North, Shingler, Lydiate etc.)


Scotland currently has:
Marfo, Swinson, Harley, Watson, Wilson, Fowles, Price, Pyrgos, Jackson, Harris,
and also Luke Hamilton from the Welsh set up/age grades.

I agree about Tom Francis and Alex Cuthbert, although slightly different cases. But Moriarty grew up in Wales, he went to Primary and Secondary in Wales, as you can see here on his wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Moriarty

This is an example I was on about, English clubs and colleges taking promising Welsh players.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I thought Moriarty went to Hartpury, And that's where Gloucester Academy found/signed him?

Edit: He did. So unless Gloucester went to him as a 14yr old and told him to go do his GCSEs in England and they'll sign him several years down the line, that's not really a poach.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think if you told Farrell he was as Irish as he is English he'd probably drop you.

Nathan Fowles has one Scottish grandparent, He came through the English academy system and played age grade for England, Edinburgh came along and said come to us and we'll guarantee you international rugby, and now, after minimal game time he's in the Scotland squad.
He's nowhere near as Scottish as the likes of Hogg etc

And who does Farrell play for?...

Do you know for a fact that Fowles doesn't consider himself in any way Scottish, it could easily have been that grandparents who got him playing and liking rugby? Moving to a league with less money, and ending any hope of a surge in form and England call up to play for them, which he wouldn't be if Laidlaw was fit and Pyrgos hadn't dropped to fourth choice in Glasgow btw, so playing for Scotland obviously means enough to him to move away from a place he was settled in and take a financial risk. And if he's just taking advantage of the system, for every example of that there are guys like Mike McCarthy, Ross Moriarty and Dan Tuohy who grew up in England, went through their systems but only ever wanted to play for Ireland/Wales, the player is the one who puts the most work in to play international rugby, taking away the option of playing for their parents or grandparents country, if that's where they consider themselves to be from, sounds downright facist to me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

And who does Farrell play for?...

Do you know for a fact that Fowles doesn't consider himself in any way Scottish

Yes,
He only ever wanted to play for England. He wasn't on their radar and then Scotland came calling so he took the chance at playing international rugby for anyone rather than holding out hope for England and probably playing for no one.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes,
He only ever wanted to play for England. He wasn't on their radar and then Scotland came calling so he took the chance at playing international rugby for anyone rather than holding out hope for England and probably playing for no one.

Ok, and do you think because a few players do that the likes of McCarthy, Tuohy, Moriarty etc... Should be forced to stick around to try to play for England or qualify by residency?

(That's also a nice little bargaining tool for the unions' clubs against all the cash that's robbing our players too, so I don't feel it's a massive crime regardless)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well moriarty was qualified from birth considering he was born here, also played for England for....4 years? U16s to u20s? Wore the rose, sang the anthem etc.

I don't care about players moving to chase their dreams of international rugby - if tuohy only ever dreamt of playing for Ireland, then moved there and ended up playing for them then that's very different from Scotland's new poaching department tapping up academy kids who once wore one of those tartan caps with the ginger hair attached to them and offering them cash to play for Scotland.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well moriarty was qualified from birth considering he was born here, also played for England for....4 years? U16s to u20s? Wore the rose, sang the anthem etc.

I don't care about players moving to chase their dreams of international rugby - if tuohy only ever dreamt of playing for Ireland, then moved there and ended up playing for them then that's very different from Scotland's new poaching department tapping up academy kids who once wore one of those tartan caps with the ginger hair attached to them and offering them cash to play for Scotland.

McCarthy played for England underage as well, there's not always the option of mixing studies and playing for a union that might not cover travelling as well as the RFU. asI said I don't think there's anything wrong, they're getting signed to a club or a club academy, not Scotland, and given more money, it's exactly what happened with McElroy in Sarries. The chance to play for Scotland/Ireland is a bargaining tool to be sure but it wouldn't work on guys like Farrell who want to play for England and have the opportunity. Keep the kids contracted and force them to be bought out if you want compensated.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Professional game, significant money and jobs are involved so all bets are off. Boundaries will be pushed, rules tested.

I don't like what's going on, but you can't blame any union for doing their utmost to put out the strongest team they can under the rules in force at that time. It's up to the governing body to make sure the rules are fit for purpose.

preferably everyone (clubs, players, and unions) would sit down and establish rules regarding finances and the administrative laws of international and club rugby so that the game could be a little more clear cut... but i don't think all sides are too interested

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

and when the rules of international rugby state that you have to play for the country that you live in/grew up in we can chastise these countries... but right now they are doing what's best for their team

And when England start scouting players abroad then we can accuse them of hypocrisy... The whole point was England were earlier accused of being hypocrites yet we don't actually engage in enticing players from abroad with the promise of England caps.