English Union proposes compensation from Unions aggressively pursuing eligibilty rules

[Leonormous Boozer]

But the RFU didnt send scouts to Ireland (threads gone Irish already) to target those players did they? This is the point. The SRFU and SFA have both been very active in looking for English players with Scottish heritage and approaching them to play for the Scottish national side. That isn't the same as a players who are immigrants or even the children of immigrants wanting to play for their adopted nation.

So, they're hardly forcing kids to play for Scotland against their will, they'll consult their parents in the decision too. If a kid wants to play for England and no one else he won't play for Scotland.

He was hardly poached then was he?

No, but it's not as if a kid with Scottish or Welsh parents or grandparents should have no right to play for those countries. If there were hundreds of kids eligible to play for England playing in Wales, England would be scouting there too but there isn't.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

which one cause his mums dad was born in Wigan, played for Wigan and England in League also pretty sure his mums mum was born in England.

I might be wrong on this one then, I was certain I read an article about his Irish eligibility around the Lions on his Irish eligibility. Its not really relevant to my point though, bit sides of the family definitely have Irish heritage and he's a direct benefit of immigration for the RFU. I'm not trying to claim he should be no. 22 for Ireland here!

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

considering nationality isn't a quantifiable thing... any competition that bases its selection rules off of it is going to leave people unhappy

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

No, but it's not as if a kid with Scottish or Welsh parents or grandparents should have no right to play for those countries. If there were hundreds of kids eligible to play for England playing in Wales, England would be scouting there too but there isn't.

Only because we choose they aren't eligible... Huge chunks of the Welsh population have an English relative in the last 2 generations. It's kinda unavoidable with the level of intermixing. However you are still clutching comparing players moving to clubs and then naturally becoming eligible or moving to England for reasons other than rugby and the aggressive scouting. We take advantage of residency for players already here, we don't look abroad and entice them here with the promise of playing for England.

 

[Groundhog]

Can't really think of players we've taken that the RFU have 'invested in' anyway, so not too sure why we're mentioned in the OP or the article. There's guys who come over based on the Exiles program who are usually picked up after playing youth by an academy anyway, and made a very clear statement about wanting to play for Ireland from the get go, every once in a while. Surely a lot more Irish guys playing in (not for of course) England than vice versa, and on the poaching side of things, England has drawn in a lot of immigrants from around the world. Just by glancing at names Snoop mentioned their national team has clearly benefited from that and continues to benefit from that, and if someone with foreign parents slips through the cracks to another country it's hardly a big deal.
On Scotland and Wales, I haven't been keeping track at all, but I got the impression Scotland took a lot of their guys from SANZAR nations and not so much England, but someone let me know. Maybe it's to do with the plans they have going forward? I don't reckon Scotland will be a big draw for top young English guys anyway, but they might pick up the odd diamond in the rough I suppose. Which guys did Wales take? Genuine question, I don't really know.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Moriarty obviously has the Welsh international family, but was born and raised in England, came through the English academy system and played all the age grades here.
Tom Francis, Alex Cuthbert,
Jake Ball (though via a stint in Australia)

There's plenty that were born in England but raised in Wales (Amos, Davies, North, Shingler, Lydiate etc.)


Scotland currently has:
Marfo, Swinson, Harley, Watson, Wilson, Fowles, Price, Pyrgos, Jackson, Harris,
and also Luke Hamilton from the Welsh set up/age grades.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Only because we choose they aren't eligible... Huge chunks of the Welsh population have an English relative in the last 2 generations. It's kinda unavoidable with the level of intermixing. However you are still clutching comparing players moving to clubs and then naturally becoming eligible or moving to England for reasons other than rugby and the aggressive scouting. We take advantage of residency for players already here, we don't look abroad and entice them here with the promise of playing for England.

So you think England should benefit from their large immigrant population and restrict other countries from benefitting from their large immigrant population? Sounds like having your cake and eating it to me. It's not like English clubs are totally innocent either, Tadhg McElroy was signed from one of the provinces to Saracens' academy.

There's also no promise that they'll play for the country either, they get signed to a club or province and go from there, Te'o was signed with a promise to play for England...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So you think England should benefit from their large immigrant population and restrict other countries from benefitting from their large immigrant population?

Well.....yes? It's England, not Ireland/Scotland/Wales. Why should anyone else but us benefit from our rugby systems? If the IRFU/SRFU/WRFU want to chip in to fund our academies and international age grade sides then maybe they can stake some sort of claim to some players.

New Zealand has a ridiculous amount of rugby talent, why should they solely benefit from that? I want Sonny Bill Williams to turn out for England on Saturday, it's only fair.


Do you have proof Te'o was signed with the promise of England? I mean it was Wuss doing the signing and they have zero to do with the England set up.
England are pretty well documented of only playing players playing in England, and Te'o has the English mother so if he wanted to play for us he was obviously going to have to move here at some point.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

it has to do with clubs being administratively (albeit not financially) independent of the RFU while the Irish provinces are part of the IRFU... an english club recruiting a foreign player is much different than an irish province doing so

 

[Groundhog]

I knew Moriarty's situation, but if your dad plays for Wales I reckon you're relatively off the hook for that one. Cuthbert seems to have received no interest until he was discovered through playing for his college in Cardiff, although based on the fact he's built like Gatland's wet dream, I'd assumed he was Welsh.
I never knew that all those Scots players were English or whatever though, so I could understand being a bit peeved about that, but again, the RFU wants World Rugby to step in to punish unions for decisions ultimately made by players of their own free will to move for International rugby. Right or not, I don't see what world that's workable in. A player can always plead the 'emotional attachment to x country' line and pull the whole thing down. FYI I think Ruaridh Jackson falls under the born in England raised in Scotland bracket.
Moriarty aside I don't think many if any of these guys were on the RFU's radar/ had been invested in hugely (once again this is based on a glance). Whatever about eligibility rules being a bit jokey, I would think there would be no hard feelings about guys like that who weren't deemed good enough in England who moved. Could understand being angry if Scotland were taking top prospects who had been playing England underage and were viewed as being good enough to step up.
I think the point Alpha is making about cake is, England benefits hugely off an immigrant population (absolutely fair) and the slight drawback of that immigrant population is a few guys going the other way to countries they're eligible for through said immigration.

 

[Groundhog]

@Tigs Man

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well.....yes? It's England, not Ireland/Scotland/Wales. Why should anyone else but us benefit from our rugby systems? If the IRFU/SRFU/WRFU want to chip in to fund our academies and international age grade sides then maybe they can stake some sort of claim to some players.

New Zealand has a ridiculous amount of rugby talent, why should they solely benefit from that? I want Sonny Bill Williams to turn out for England on Saturday, it's only fair.


Do you have proof Te'o was signed with the promise of England? I mean it was Wuss doing the signing and they have zero to do with the England set up.
England are pretty well documented of only playing players playing in England, and Te'o has the English mother so if he wanted to play for us he was obviously going to have to move here at some point.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that first statement though? Why should anyone but us benefit from our gene pool? It's not like they wouldn't go through good academies had their families not emigrated for a better standard of living. Every Irish academy had at least one Lion this summer, Leinster's had 4, if English kids with potential were going the other way they'd still be made good players.

New Zealand aren't the only benefactors, look at any of the Pacific Island's teams, they don't knock up a fuss because they know they benefit just as much if not more for the immigration to their country.

Te'o didn't consider playing for Leinster due to the lure of England and comments by Jones, he'd just as likely be in France otherwise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that first statement though? Why should anyone but us benefit from our gene pool?

No, because this isn't a beauty contest. Genetics plays a part, sure - but is there really much athletic difference between Western European countries? Is a Welsh person genetically different to an Englishman or a Scotsman? Considering the borders are just lines drawn on a map?
The academies and coaching that they're exposed to is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far more important than Owen Farrell's nan potentially being born in Ireland.


Teo went to Leinster for the cash, he went to Worcester for the cash and knowing he had to be in England to potentially play for England. I still don't see how that's him being signed on the promise of international rugby. As mentioned above: Clubs are separate from the RFU. The RFU had no input into Worcester signing him.
If the RFU really targetted him then they'd have signed him to a top 4 side, not a bottom 4.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

No, because this isn't a beauty contest. Genetics plays a part, sure - but is there really much athletic difference between Western European countries? Is a Welsh person genetically different to an Englishman or a Scotsman? Considering the borders are just lines drawn on a map?
The academies and coaching that they're exposed to is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far more important than Owen Farrell's nan potentially being born in Ireland..

Damn right they are thank god.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No, because this isn't a beauty contest. Genetics plays a part, sure - but is there really much athletic difference between Western European countries? Is a Welsh person genetically different to an Englishman or a Scotsman? Considering the borders are just lines drawn on a map?
The academies and coaching that they're exposed to is far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far more important than Owen Farrell's nan potentially being born in Ireland.


Teo went to Leinster for the cash, he went to Worcester for the cash and knowing he had to be in England to potentially play for England. I still don't see how that's him being signed on the promise of international rugby. As mentioned above: Clubs are separate from the RFU. The RFU had no input into Worcester signing him.
If the RFU really targetted him then they'd have signed him to a top 4 side, not a bottom 4.

But you're not going to be a pro rugby player if you're 5"5 and 65kg sopping wet/Groundhog. If Farrell's ancestors hadn't moved to England he wouldn't be available for England, it's directly benefitting from immigration. Did England put a lot of work in to make him the player he is? yes. Could they have if he wasn't there? No. If he'd grown up in Dublin would he have been the player he is? Probably.

Ireland, Wales and Scotland lose potential through emigration, England gain a lot. Ireland, Wales and Scotland gain through scouting well and picking up young talent, who England have no right to with freedom of movement and that jazz, England lose a bit. Immigration aids England far more than picking up a few young guys eligible to play for your country do. If the RFU were so keen to keep these guys, offer them more money like Wuss did Te'o and they'd undoubtedly stay, they're playing for clubs over here after all. This just asking for handouts.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

**** me, let's all do one of those DNA tests before we declare for a country.
Scandinavian teams are gonna be immense.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Can't really think of players we've taken that the RFU have 'invested in' anyway, so not too sure why we're mentioned in the OP or the article. There's guys who come over based on the Exiles program who are usually picked up after playing youth by an academy anyway, and made a very clear statement about wanting to play for Ireland from the get go, every once in a while. Surely a lot more Irish guys playing in (not for of course) England than vice versa, and on the poaching side of things, England has drawn in a lot of immigrants from around the world. Just by glancing at names Snoop mentioned their national team has clearly benefited from that and continues to benefit from that, and if someone with foreign parents slips through the cracks to another country it's hardly a big deal.
On Scotland and Wales, I haven't been keeping track at all, but I got the impression Scotland took a lot of their guys from SANZAR nations and not so much England, but someone let me know. Maybe it's to do with the plans they have going forward? I don't reckon Scotland will be a big draw for top young English guys anyway, but they might pick up the odd diamond in the rough I suppose. Which guys did Wales take? Genuine question, I don't really know.

It is very much to do with the plans going forward. It is only recently that the above named unions have specifically employed people whose sole job, 24/7, is to proactively tap players with a Granny who might have once passed through their home country.

This November Germany will be dishing out 11 new caps, primarily to players qualifying through parentage. I agree residency is the bigger factor but I am concerned that international sport is fundamentally undermined if you have teams filled with players who have never set foot in the country they represent. It is also destructive in terms of disincentivising spreading the game domestically, getting rugby balls in kids hands and nurturing your own talent.

I've also no objection to Scotland being called out as prime offenders. Both the football and rugby unions are the worst in their respective sports for leeching off the hard efforts of others.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So you think England should benefit from their large immigrant population and restrict other countries from benefitting from their large immigrant population? Sounds like having your cake and eating it to me. It's not like English clubs are totally innocent either, Tadhg McElroy was signed from one of the provinces to Saracens' academy.

There's also no promise that they'll play for the country either, they get signed to a club or province and go from there, Te'o was signed with a promise to play for England...

Yeah because the issue here is aggressive scouting to bring people in. England take advantage of players already here but we aren't going abroad and promising them England caps. The fact they are here is nothing to do with the RFU.

 

[ratsapprentice]

This November Germany will be dishing out 11 new caps, primarily to players qualifying through parentage. I agree residency is the bigger factor but I am concerned that international sport is fundamentally undermined if you have teams filled with players who have never set foot in the country they represent. It is also destructive in terms of disincentivising spreading the game domestically, getting rugby balls in kids hands and nurturing your own talent.

I have less issue with Tier 2/3 countries doing it as a means of gaining traction as a fledgling sport, although there is definitely a balance to be struck.

We don't want a Qatari handball situation.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah because the issue here is aggressive scouting to bring people in. England take advantage of players already here but we aren't going abroad and promising them England caps. The fact they are here is nothing to do with the RFU.

It's not as if the IRFU, WRU and SRU are driving kids out of the country... Basically England should benefit from their large population, large number of immigrants and get compensated by those smaller countries who's immigrants you directly benefit from when they take one or two back? Do you want 15 point head starts and an extra man with that?