English summer rugby

[Peat]

As Henry says really. His most recent form was unimpressive, and his decision making is very hit and miss - 28 penalties conceded, 24 missed tackles, 23 turnovers conceded. At the moment, he's comfortably the worst back row in the squad, and whoever you left out to fit him in would deserve the place more.

That said - no telling how he'll start the new season, maybe without the distraction of the move he'll be more interested.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You've not mentioned the fact that despite his mistakes he was comfortably the most destructive ball carrier of any back row player.
He beat more defenders than anyone in the premiership, bar Mike Brown, and made far more metres than any other 8.
Hardly "unimpressive", even counting his errors.

We need an 8 to back up Morgan, at the moment he is the best option.

I'd prefer to have him take up a bench slot over someone else for one match and give him some game-time, than for him to have to make his debut as a starter if Morgan is injured.

He was obviously upset by the move to Saracens, it seems to me that he was basically forced to move by his parents.
Which is a bit of an awkward situation, even now he doesn't seem to be all that happy to have left Wasps.*
I'm not saying that he isn't happy to be at Sarries, but that he didn't necessarily want to leave Wasps.
Maybe that's wrong, but it's how I've read the situation.

Hopefully the move will do him good though, as his discipline undeniably took a nosedive midway through the season.


*see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGamNTCTZI4

 

[Peat]

I'm not sure I can be bothered to do a comprehensive look at the stats to see whether this was backed up, but his end of season form was gash. Genuinely quite bad. At the start of the season he looked the works, at the end he looked poo. Yes, he carried well, but there were so many other faults it was pretty well cancelled.

Now, yes I'd agree the move to Saracens probably affected that a little. And yes, I'd agree we need a back up to Morgan, and it might well be worth prioritising that. International selection isn't totally about fairness after all. But if you asked me list in what order I'd prefer to see England's back-rowers on the pitch at the moment, he'd be comfortably last. He has not merited selection. We might have to give it to him anyway, I'm sorta cool with that, but he hasn't earned the shirt. Not at the moment. Which means unless we really need him, I don't think he should get it until he shows better form. And, tbh, I'm not sure we'd be doing him any favours sticking him in an England shirt unless he picks up.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Do you mean he's not your second choice 8, or that he's behind other flankers?

Also curious as to where you get your stats from, I'm slightly annoyed at how ****/non-existent the premiership's own are.

 

[Peat]

He is my second choice 8. He is my sixth choice to put on the bench. I fervently hope he is needed in neither capacity until he's rounded off the raw edges some and regained his form.

 

[Patchey]

You've not mentioned the fact that despite his mistakes he was comfortably the most destructive ball carrier of any back row player.
He beat more defenders than anyone in the premiership, bar Mike Brown, and made far more metres than any other 8.
Hardly "unimpressive", even counting his errors.

We need an 8 to back up Morgan, at the moment he is the best option.

I'd prefer to have him take up a bench slot over someone else for one match and give him some game-time, than for him to have to make his debut as a starter if Morgan is injured.

He was obviously upset by the move to Saracens, it seems to me that he was basically forced to move by his parents.
Which is a bit of an awkward situation, even now he doesn't seem to be all that happy to have left Wasps.*
I'm not saying that he isn't happy to be at Sarries, but that he didn't necessarily want to leave Wasps.
Maybe that's wrong, but it's how I've read the situation.

Hopefully the move will do him good though, as his discipline undeniably took a nosedive midway through the season.


*see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGamNTCTZI4

I'm really interested to know where you got that information from, I know there was the obvious familly connection with Mako being at Sarries but I hadn't heard about anything else.

 

[ratsapprentice]

"During our contract talks, the player had been adamant that he did not want to leave the club but we know he was under pressure for family reasons to go and join his brother at Saracens. We did everything in our power to keep Billy. We offered him the contract he asked for.

- Dai Young

 

[Peat]

There was also a joint interview with the brothers in which they said their mum didn't want them playing each other.

 

[Tony Manx]

There was also a joint interview with the brothers in which they said their mum didn't want them playing each other.

Did you miss a word out after "playing" and before "each"?

 

[j'nuh]

We need an 8 to back up Morgan, at the moment he is the best option.

Yes and no. If Morgan were to get injured, then I'd probably bring Vunipola into the XV.

Something that kind of frustrates me about England is that it seems predetermined that Morgan comes off the field. He could play the best game of his life, and he'd still be replaced. He never comes off for Glos. Not once has he started and not finished a match. He's fit enough for full 80s, so I don't understand why we don't use this when he's so integral to the squad.

Vunipola-for-Morgan is the straightest of swaps that you'd barely ever want to make. I would always look at that swap with apprehension. If there's 10 mins to go and the scores are tight, I'd think to myself, why not keep Morgan on? Croft-for-X has real merit tactically. Lineout not functioning? Lacking pace? Looking for a weapon? Having as many of Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Kvesic involved gives us tactical options, that Vunipola doesn't.

Sometimes you have to accept that full squad coverage isn't all that possible. Kvesic/Wood/Robshaw all have experience of 8. I'd want to keep Kvesic away from the ball carrying, as his breakdown work is more important, but he could be one of a few options in terms of carrying. (I never believed that the 8 should be the only one carrying. A 6 or 7 that helps out with the carrying is pretty valuable to have.)

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't mean we need a backup 8 in the 23, we need one in the squad.
We need that backup to have first team experience, hence having him in the 23 initially so that he can get that time, without having to start...

I also disagree that Billy is a straight swap for Morgan, he is a much more physical carrier than Ben is.
Although there is enough overlap in their games that they form a good pairing, assuming both are in good form.

 

[Patchey]

Yes and no. If Morgan were to get injured, then I'd probably bring Vunipola into the XV.

Something that kind of frustrates me about England is that it seems predetermined that Morgan comes off the field. He could play the best game of his life, and he'd still be replaced. He never comes off for Glos. Not once has he started and not finished a match. He's fit enough for full 80s, so I don't understand why we don't use this when he's so integral to the squad.

Vunipola-for-Morgan is the straightest of swaps that you'd barely ever want to make. I would always look at that swap with apprehension. If there's 10 mins to go and the scores are tight, I'd think to myself, why not keep Morgan on? Croft-for-X has real merit tactically. Lineout not functioning? Lacking pace? Looking for a weapon? Having as many of Wood/Croft/Robshaw/Kvesic involved gives us tactical options, that Vunipola doesn't.

Sometimes you have to accept that full squad coverage isn't all that possible. Kvesic/Wood/Robshaw all have experience of 8. I'd want to keep Kvesic away from the ball carrying, as his breakdown work is more important, but he could be one of a few options in terms of carrying. (I never believed that the 8 should be the only one carrying. A 6 or 7 that helps out with the carrying is pretty valuable to have.)

I think if we can get some of our other forwards carrying with intent then the idea of, as you suggest, Croft for Morgan late on to spice things up has a lot of merit. However while Morgan is still our only really constant source of momentum in terms of carrying I'd keep him on till the death in situations like that.

Attwood might provide that, and I've always been mystified as to why Cole has such low carrying stats.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Cole is just a really poor ball carrier, and it pains me to say that... it took my ages to accept that he just isn't very good at it.
Attwood will certainly help, as would Wilson.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't mean we need a backup 8 in the 23, we need one in the squad.
We need that backup to have first team experience, hence having him in the 23 initially so that he can get that time, without having to start...

Oh yeah, 100 per cent agreed. I'd love for it to be different though. Many teams get away without having the "traditional 8" in their squad by having players that can carry in other positions. We have Moriaty on the way though, already being compared to SO'B.

I also disagree that Billy is a straight swap for Morgan, he is a much more physical carrier than Ben is.
Although there is enough overlap in their games that they form a good pairing, assuming both are in good form.

What I mean is that both provide carrying as the most important part of their games. I think Morgan to be faster/fitter, but you can't argue against ~20st of 8 being the more physical.

I certainly wouldn't see the tactical need to swap the two though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What I mean is that both provide carrying as the most important part of their games.

Surely carrying is the most important part of every 8's game though.

 

[Peat]

I'd say Morgan and Vunipola are pretty similar players, and I wouldn't say Vunipola was much more physical than Morgan. I'd say J'nuh's point about them being little point swapping them tactically is spot on.

Giving Vunipola international game time would help him, but that's true of a lot of players (including Kvesic), and frankly I'd rather win games here and now than blood Vunipola. Let him learn at Sarries - there's plenty he can learn there - and prove he's got the type of reliability England need.

I'd also agree with everyone who said it would be nice to see a bit more carrying from other players - and tight carrying at that. There's a lot of guys who do well when the ball starts rolling, but not so many who get it to start rolling. Some 6s who get involved in that way would be nice.

Did you miss a word out after "playing" and before "each"?

Against might make it clearer for those who did not find it so.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'd say there would be some merit in swapping them.
Against a very organised defence in poor conditions I could see Binny being more effective, and it's possible that you go into a game expecting neither of those conditions.
Although I agree that having the ability to do that is not worth a bench spot.

 

[j'nuh]

Surely carrying is the most important part of every 8's game though.

Maybe I'd have been better saying that both have carrying as their main priority in games. Some 8s aren't picked for their carrying, but that they can do other things as well as carry eg, Morgan is a stronger carrier than Faletau, but Faletau makes up for it in other ways. Both Morgan and Vunipola are predominantly there to carry.

I'd say there would be some merit in swapping them.
Against a very organised defence in poor conditions I could see Binny being more effective, and it's possible that you go into a game expecting neither of those conditions.
Although I agree that having the ability to do that is not worth a bench spot.

My main problem with Binny is that he's one of the more clumsier players. I've seen him make quite a few blunders from knock ons, dropped catches etc. Him in poor conditions? Please no.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I agree with the concern about Binny making errors. One free kick can undo all the carrying and more that he may have done.An 8's role is to carry AND control the ball. No good blasting through a defence if you can't be relied on to maintain posession or get the pass off when required.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No good blasting through a defence if you can't be relied on to maintain posession or get the pass off when required.

That goes for every player, regardless of position.

Wild Bill was running at people as hard as he could at the end of the season, a bit like SOB did in the 6N, I hope that his inability to keep hold of the ball can be somewhat explained by that.