English clubs threaten USA - All Blacks in Chicago

[Shaggy]

my point is it's an IRB sanctioned and arranged competition they are obligated to release them - the Eagles test and the AI pre-window tests are not, and clubs are under no obligation to release them.

EPL released all the players in last years AI window not just the European nations.

I think the iRB sanctioned part of your statement is misleading. All Blacks v USA is undoubtedly sanctioned by the iRB, the three test series between the All Blacks and England in June is iRB sanctioned series yet the first test falls outside the window.

Yes, the clubs aren't obliged to release the players outside the window

 

[ratsapprentice]

Can we please stop using "EPL" to refer to "PRL".

The EPL is the biggest domestic football competition in the world... nothing to do with rugby.

 

[Tony Manx]

While they're shifting stuff around they might as well go the whole nine yards and flip to playing in summer. Better rugby and a globally aligned calendar.

B**locks!

 

[goodNumber10]

I think the iRB sanctioned part of your statement is misleading. All Blacks v USA is undoubtedly sanctioned by the iRB, the three test series between the All Blacks and England in June is iRB sanctioned series yet the first test falls outside the window.

Yes, the clubs aren't obliged to release the players outside the window

The first test is inside the window and that's the problem. The test series was agreed in 2010, the window was adjusted in 2012 when the new schedule was agreed.

England asked New Zealand to move it back a week but New Zealand have refused as they want their rest weekend the before the test series rather than after it even though they are the only teams involved in that round.

The PNC is INSIDE the test window... Which ran in tandem with the Lions tour.

 

[goodNumber10]

Can we please stop using "EPL" to refer to "PRL".

The EPL is the biggest domestic football competition in the world... nothing to do with rugby.

Yeah sorry... Always get the two confused for some reason.

 

[goodNumber10]

Maybe I didn't clarify but the clubs were not obliged to release players for the PNC matches played outside of the window last year, in fact Canada vs. U.S.A. was only turned into an official capped match at the last minute when the teams realized they could field reasonably adequate sides out of their domestic players.

Maybe I wasn't clear, the PNC was played inside the IRB test window which ran last weekend of May through to end of June - it was run alongside the Lions tour.

Just because you didn't want to award caps doesn't mean it wasn't in the window.

 

[smartcooky]

Talking of BS are you going to answer my other question to you? or just cherry pick the things EPL agree with you on?

I'll answer your question.

You cannot SR start in January, its too hot in South Africa (who won't allow it anyway) and Australia, and in NZ its still cricket season and many grounds would not be available. It would also push the pre-season forward into December, just after the end of the NH tours. When do players get their mandatory break?

Also, the EPL is a Football competition, and has nothing to do with rugby

The rest of your post was mostly rubbish and didn't address any of the points I was making.

Oh, and they aren't my "musings". They are reports in the media, which I posted.

Reuters UK a reliable enough source for you? http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/11/rugby-zealand-idUKL3N0NX01420140511

You try to make out that moving the season would be some insurmountable obstacle because it involves three or four competitions. That's just rubbish. How do you think the season is organised? Do you think it just organises itself? Do you think that your NH administrators are so incompetent that they couldn't do it?

 

[goodNumber10]

Still haven't answered my question.

 

[smartcooky]

Still haven't answered my question.

Your first question

"why not move your season forward a month to start in January?"

I've answered that

Your second question

"why is it always the obligation of the NH to bow down to the SH overlords?

Thats not a question, its a false premise.

In fact, it is the other way around. The Home Unions and sometimes the Six nations, have routinely used their two votes each country to block vote what they want and don't want, while other countries such as Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, have one vote between them.

The whole system is flawed and biased in favour of the Six nations/Europe

 

[goodNumber10]

Your first question

"why not move your season forward a month to start in January?"

I've answered that

Well according to you it's apiece of "Pish" to move 4 competitions around, so i'm sure the mighty brain trust in SANZAR will be able to figure out how to move one and fit in a decent rest period.

Your second question

"why is it always the obligation of the NH to bow down to the SH overlords?

Thats not a question, its a false premise.

It is, and that's because it wasn't my question. Read back through the thread.

In fact, it is the other way around. The Home Unions and sometimes the Six nations, have routinely used their two votes each country to block vote what they want and don't want, while other countries such as Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, have one vote between them.

The whole system is flawed and biased in favour of the Six nations/Europe

No the whole system is biased in favour of the most powerful countries. You act like the SANZAR nations don't do the exact same thing when something doesn't fit their agenda (like move the England tests back a week for example), that's politics you horse trade for what's beneficial to you - that doesn't mean it has to be done at the expense of developing the game.

From the IRB counter to the Putting Rugby First report:

1. Democracy - While no system is perfect it is not unreasonable to argue that those that provide the bulk of players and money into the Game should have the bulk of the representation. All Unions are represented on the IRB Council. The Regional Associations have been strengthened and properly funded to run competitions and grow the Game. We will continue to ensure our democratic structures meet the needs of Rugby at any given point as the Game evolves.

From your very first post you have been on a rant at the 6 Nations Unions and NH clubs for harbouring nefarious reasons and holding back the game - yet you fail to point out how little SANZAR do to spread the love - first it was because we didn't release players outside of the window, when in fact no one does, then it was our clubs drafting a cowardly attack on the IRB an attack, the same clubs you're now defending your view point with.

You're right there is a huge amount of bias and it's pretty clear to everyone where it's coming from.

 

[LittleGuy]

Maybe I wasn't clear, the PNC was played inside the IRB test window which ran last weekend of May through to end of June - it was run alongside the Lions tour.

Just because you didn't want to award caps doesn't mean it wasn't in the window.

The British and Irish Lions tour didn't start till the first weekend of June. Did you mean the England vs. Barbarians match? I think that was only players who played for teams already eliminated from the club season as well.

 

[Shaggy]

The first test is inside the window and that's the problem. The test series was agreed in 2010, the window was adjusted in 2012 when the new schedule was agreed.

England asked New Zealand to move it back a week but New Zealand have refused as they want their rest weekend the before the test series rather than after it even though they are the only teams involved in that round.

The PNC is INSIDE the test window... Which ran in tandem with the Lions tour.

If the England tests all fall within the test window, and there is no flexibility for releasing the US players for a test match that falls outside of the test window, unless some sort of payment is involved, then surely the clubs should pay some sort of restitution for the players that will be unavailable for the first test then ... or does the flexibility always have to favour the NH clubs.

Your statement about the Super Rugby round in question is incorrect as well ... South Africa is the only team that started early, so therefore it's the Australian and New Zealand sides that are involved in the round in question, meaning agreement would have to be attained from the ARU as well, and the Broadcasters who have the TV rights.

It doesn't make much sense to me to have the rest weekend after the test series to be honest, as it's the Super Rugby sides that would get the benefit of that an not the national sides. The break before the matches, allows the national squads to train together.

They could have all started Super Rugby the same week that South Africa did (which is preferably to me because it keeps all of the teams together in terms of the number of games played), but that would mean the loss of a revenue weekend for the Super Rugby broadcasters, so there may be an issue there.

 

[goodNumber10]

The British and Irish Lions tour didn't start till the first weekend of June. Did you mean the England vs. Barbarians match? I think that was only players who played for teams already eliminated from the club season as well.

At the risk of becoming a belligerent git I'll say it again.

All the 2013 PCN games were in the official test window.


The test window started the 26th... Who played for England against the Barbarians has nothing to do with the test window.

 

[goodNumber10]

If the England tests all fall within the test window, and there is no flexibility for releasing the US players for a test match that falls outside of the test window, unless some sort of payment is involved, then surely the clubs should pay some sort of restitution for the players that will be unavailable for the first test then ... or does the flexibility always have to favour the NH clubs.

Your statement about the Super Rugby round in question is incorrect as well ... South Africa is the only team that started early, so therefore it's the Australian and New Zealand sides that are involved in the round in question, meaning agreement would have to be attained from the ARU as well, and the Broadcasters who have the TV rights.

It doesn't make much sense to me to have the rest weekend after the test series to be honest, as it's the Super Rugby sides that would get the benefit of that an not the national sides. The break before the matches, allows the national squads to train together.

They could have all started Super Rugby the same week that South Africa did (which is preferably to me because it keeps all of the teams together in terms of the number of games played), but that would mean the loss of a revenue weekend for the Super Rugby broadcasters, so there may be an issue there.

Sorry mate I don't understand your first point... Which test window are you talking about? *edit just raised what your saying... No.

Because they are in the rest and travel week allotted by IRB for player welfare. Not playing for their clubs the season finishes the week before the test.

Re: S15. Only one of the games that weekend is inter country... Force vs Blues. Everything else is NZ v NZ or As vs As so unaffected. One provincial game vs a Test match which you all keep saying is the priority.

Each country takes it in turn to start early, last year Australia, this year SA, next year NZ.

And essentially what your saying is "sod the international game cos we're alright, we'll play a weak side because it suits us."

So NZ put the international game first when it suits them but not when it would mean a good meaningful test series.

No worse than PRL sticking to the rest window is it?

 

[LittleGuy]

At the risk of becoming a belligerent git I'll say it again.

All the 2013 PCN games were in the official test window.


The test window started the 26th... Who played for England against the Barbarians has nothing to do with the test window.

AND THE TWO PNC GAMES WERE PLAYED ON MAY 25th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Before the test window.

 

[goodNumber10]

AND THE TWO PNC GAMES WERE PLAYED ON MAY 25th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Before the test window.

Oh FFS!

What don't you get?


The 2013 PNC was in the test window... So I've got the date wrong by 24 hours... It doesn't change anything.

 

[smartcooky]

Oh FFS!

What don't you get?


The 2013 PNC was in the test window... So I've got the date wrong by 24 hours... It doesn't change anything.

Have a look at the iRB schedule some time. You will see matches such as RWC qualifiers held outside international windows all the time.

Oh, and don't worry about becoming a "belligerent git"... you have already acheived that standard

 

[LittleGuy]

Oh FFS!

What don't you get?


The 2013 PNC was in the test window... So I've got the date wrong by 24 hours... It doesn't change anything.

I follow Canadian rugby passionately, it was consistently stated last year that the Canada vs. U.S.A. match was outside of the window and that Canada and the Eagles would only be getting players from clubs already eliminated from competition, or clubs that were feeling generous or simply didnt need the player (a.k.a. Taylor Paris from Glasgow). This is also why the two Unions were originally split on whether to give the game official test status, but changed their minds when it became clear the lineups would be relatively strong and it wouldn't be a joke contest.

In fact a 24 hour difference itself could be crucial if there were a pile of Saturday playoff matches on May 25th in the European competitions, it dosen't sound that important but it could mean the difference between playing in a semi-final or being called up and thus unavailable for that contest.

That does it for me on this, I'm sick to death of arguing with you on this issue, it was a fairly salient point in your debate with Cooky that I attempted to clarify(Manawatu has been very generous in releasing Buydens so I know from experience ITM cup teams are good at releasing guys), Cooky is more than capable of holding his own with you on a debate anyway and I'll leave the thread to the two of you.

 

[psychic duck]

Oh FFS!

What don't you get?


The 2013 PNC was in the test window... So I've got the date wrong by 24 hours... It doesn't change anything.

Not sure where you've got your facts from on this. The opening weekends to the PNC last year were outside the release window.

Lions tours, along with World Cups are designated by the IRB as special events where the release period can be altered. Hence why the World Cup is still in a release window for those involved even though it was played in September/October.

RWC qualifiers are also given special exemption by IRB, hence why USA managed to field their best team against Uruguay for instance on a date outside the usual release windows.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Have a look at the iRB schedule some time. You will see matches such as RWC qualifiers held outside international windows all the time.

I was under the impression that RWC Qualifiers create their own "window".
We released Kulemin and Ostrikov to play for Russia in their qualifiers, and Saints released Manoa, and the PRL didn't make a sound so I presume that it's all above board.