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Englands Backrow

goodNumber10

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So Rugby world have run a couple of articles on Englands Backrow make up:

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries...lands-back-row-headache-for-stuart-lancaster/

and also a full analysis in the magazine by Richard Hill, Martyn Williams, Maggie Alphonsi, Stephen Donald, Miles Harrison etc...

Robshaw is pretty much in everyones mix, everyone talks about Kvesic, and obviously Armitage is in the mix. Croft comes up quite a bit as well.

So.............................. i know we do this to death, but lets hear your:

  • England Back row - with backups for the next 12 months (injuries not being a concern)
  • longer term post world cup england backrow
  • if you think your backrow would result in a different game plan to that played by the current england team,
 
6. Robshaw
7. Seymour
8. Vunilola

19. Fearns

I know you have a love of Seymour but that back row is made so much stronger going for the below. Robshaw plays the open side role well. He also offer a lot around the field in open play, leadership and work rate.

6 wood
7 robshaw
8 billy

19 Haskell

Haskell on the bench for experience and a good running game later on.
 
6. Haskell
7. Seymour
8. Binny

19. Fearns


Squad: Lund, Morgan, Robshaw, Kvesic
 
Today (this is in an ideal world where Kvesic was drip fed into the squad from the bench during the 6n/AI's):

6. Robshaw
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola

19. Morgan

Post RWC:

6. Fearns/Moriarty/Ewers/Itoje?
7. Kvesic
8. Vunipola/Morgan

19. Robshaw

Don't think the gameplan would change much - Robshaw may do a little less link work, but that's about it.
 
6. Haskell
7. Seymour
8. Binny

19. Fearns


Squad: Lund, Morgan, Robshaw, Kvesic

Why have a 7 that most people haven't heard of.


My back row would be

6) Croft
7) Gibson
8) Crane

(joking BTW)

Me I would go for

6) Croft
7) Robshaw
8) Vunipola

With Haskell/Kvesic bench

why because if we have a fully fit squad which imo should be.

1) Corbs (if he has a good full season at saints)
2) Youngs
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Lawes
6) Croft
7) Robshaw
8) Vunipola

Bench
1) Marler
2) Webber/Hartley
3) Wilson
4) Attwood/Parling
5) Haskell/Kvesic

you have the breakdown workers/work horses in Cole, Corbs, Launchbury, Laws, Robshaw and Youngs, then You heavy impact runners in Youngs and Vunipola. and then your forward with the speed of a outside back in Croft who also is a 1 man lineout machine who just being at the front puts of throwers.

Although I would have Kvesic starting if he continues to improve this season.

Mind you I would try and put Croft into any team as I may be biased.
 
At the moment,

6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola

20. Morgan

Ideally Kvesic would be there ahead of Wood (Robshaw moves across), but Lancaster, in his infinite wisdom, decided to play Tom Johnson ahead of him against Wales and Italy, and Haskell against New Zealand. He might be lucky and get to play against Samoa this autumn. I still don't understand why he's not in there- against Argentina last year and the Crusaders this summer he was one of the best players on the pitch.

I'm also not entirely sure about Binny ahead of Morgan. At the start of the season, yes, but towards the end he slowed down a lot. Hopefully the Saracens strength & conditioning people continue to work their magic on him (and keep him around 20-odd stone).
 
Post RWC:
6. Fearns/Moriarty/Ewers/Itoje?

Would you play Itoje in the backrow?

Ideally Kvesic would be there ahead of Wood (Robshaw moves across), but Lancaster, in his infinite wisdom, decided to play Tom Johnson ahead of him against Wales and Italy, and Haskell against New Zealand. He might be lucky and get to play against Samoa this autumn. I still don't understand why he's not in there- against Argentina last year and the Crusaders this summer he was one of the best players on the pitch.

Harrison was quite explicit in saying that he thought Kvesic maybe missed his chance (I'm paraphrasing here a bit).

He kind of says everyone thought "KVESIC it is his time". but then he lost form and struggled with Gloucester, and seems to have been penalised for that.
 
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I really hope Haskell gets some more gametime over the autumn, put some real pressure on Wood and/or whichever 8 is on the bench.
 
Would you play Itoje in the backrow?

I would say that he has certainly go the athleticism and the looseplay to play there, his skills and reading of the game are also very impressive. It's important not to specialise him yet especially when he's only played one competitive (non lv cup) club match and actually score a try as a backrow in that very game!

Playing with fully pro grown men is very different to playing with young men, some you could even say are kids, especially in the tight five. Remember Warburton was an 8 at u20 level, and kvesic was a carrying 6.

England have also got some real beef in that second row coming through and the nations around the world don't seem to be shrinking there either! Toner, Skelton, Etzebeth, le jooger?, Rettalick etc... Could he be too small at the top level?
 
I would say that he has certainly go the athleticism and the looseplay to play there, his skills and reading of the game are also very impressive. It's important not to specialise him yet especially when he's only played one competitive (non lv cup) club match and actually score a try as a backrow in that very game!

Playing with fully pro grown men is very different to playing with young men, some you could even say are kids, especially in the tight five. Remember Warburton was an 8 at u20 level, and kvesic was a carrying 6.

England have also got some real beef in that second row coming through and the nations around the world don't seem to be shrinking there either! Toner, Skelton, Etzebeth, le jooger?, Rettalick etc... Could he be too small at the top level?

fair points mate, i was thinking he's probably to slight for backrow.
 
Right now, England's best proven back row is one of Croft and Wood, Robshaw and Morgan. You then have Vunipola on the bench, as that switch has been very effective, and as England are dead without a strong ball carrier somewhere in there.

I am not satisfied with that. I don't really get where its strengths are in an aggressive game plan - it's not a ball carrying back row, it's not a linking back row or one with pace to burn if we get loose (unless you make Croft one of the players), it's not a really big strong back row that can help dominate the tight. So something should change.

Lets talk about openside first. If we want to play a wide expansive game then we need to look hard at replacing Robshaw with Kvesic. I don't think we can play one of those well anyway, so I wouldn't do that. I might consider Kvesic anyway, but the reality is he needs to show he's a better option in general at international level, and he is running out of games in which to do so. Lancaster has been an idiot here. However, it's been done, and Armitage needs to come home to be talked about, and so I'd prepare to go into the next World Cup with Robshaw at openside.

So, blindside. If I haven't made it clear enough, I drop Wood. That's harsh and not entirely deserved, but the fact is the back row balance is wrong, and if one of Robshaw and Wood lose, it's Wood. The only circs in which I'd keep him is one in which we had a front five like this - Vunipola/Corbs; Youngs/LCD; Cole; Attwood; Launchbury - that is, one in which there are enough carriers and jackals to pick workhorses in the back row. I don't see us picking a tight five like that anytime soon, so that's out.

To me, the choice becomes - someone like Croft or Johnson, to add more pace and loose carrying and support; or someone like Haskell, Fearns, Garvey, maybe even Burgess... a second big carrier who adds more strength to the maul. Haskell's probably a compromise between the two sets.

If I'm honest, I'm considering plumping for Haskell. He is incredibly hard working, he carries well, he has a bit of pace, he jackals well (when it occurs to him) and links nicely. He has the experience too, which is something I very much want at this stage.

The following back row - Haskell; Robshaw; Morgan (Croft) - I feel is a good one. It's hard working, it's got a fair bit of gas, it's got two strong ball carriers, two reasonable jackals (Launchbury's proto-6 nature will come very much in handy here mind)... then you've got Croft to punish a game that really opens up. That's the other thing about someone like Haskell - you don't have to have both Bill and Ben. I feel Fearns is the next best option for this game. The idea is for England to hammer midfield mainly and find holes there. It seems to be where we're at our strongest. So yeah, I'm picking my back row to fit the current plan.

Going forwards... going forwards the challenge has to be for other men to prove they are better than the incumbents. There's a lot of potential and guys you could get excited about, but I don't see the point in speculating too much before we know who's going to put themselves forwards at the time.
 
The following back row - Haskell; Robshaw; Morgan (Croft) - I feel is a good one. It's hard working, it's got a fair bit of gas, it's got two strong ball carriers, two reasonable jackals (Launchbury's proto-6 nature will come very much in handy here mind)...

To be fair that is the backrow we had int he first NZ test and they were utterly immense.
 
Something I think we need to remember when considering who comes in after the RWC, is that Fearns is only 25.

I can agree with most of that Peat.

I definitely think Itoje could play 6.
It depends on what sort of build he ends up with - from what I've seen of him he could quite easily carry 118/120kg and still be mobile enough to play in the back row.
He's very powerful - he used to be a national level shot-putter. We're talking Etzebeth tier athlete IMO.

edit: just seen he feels the same way!... http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/future-faces-samson-lee-and-maro-itoje/
 
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Just hope Itoje doesn't get cursed as a 5.5 type player, I don't think he will though.

If he can get to that weight it wont matter so much though.
 
Something I think we need to remember when considering who comes in after the RWC, is that Fearns is only 25.

I can agree with most of that Peat.

I definitely think Itoje could play 6.
It depends on what sort of build he ends up with - from what I've seen of him he could quite easily carry 118/120kg and still be mobile enough to play in the back row.
He's very powerful - he used to be a national level shot-putter. We're talking Etzebeth tier athlete IMO.

edit: just seen he feels the same way!... http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/future-faces-samson-lee-and-maro-itoje/

never realised he was that big
 
To be fair that is the backrow we had int he first NZ test and they were utterly immense.

That did help my thinking, aye...

Re Itoje - I would *love* a quick, huge back rower with the intention of moulding our own version of Fez/Kaino/Smith. I believe this is the future for blindside; the quickest and most breakdown savvy lock on the pitch. I've talked endlessly on this score with young players like Launchbury (and Henderson for Ulster). I think I'd rather pick Itoje at blindside than lock.

I would also state that I'm not sure 6'5" is tall enough for a international second row, particularly one expecting to get as big as Itoje is. That's not something I'd consider completely beneficial for the lineout.

Time will tell where he ends up, but I've a feeling it might well be in the back row, that's what makes most sense to me.
 
never realised he was that big

Yeah - he's a big guy.

This is basically the base he was starting from - the thing to note is how big his legs are naturally.
For a guy as tall as he is to basically carry that sort of leg size practically naturally is damn impressive.
fs_1285685650.jpg

And this is him recently - 6'5" and 110kg according to the RFU - I don't think he's going to struggle to get into the shape his position requires - whatever it ends up being.

Leicester-UK-10th-May-2014-Sarracens-Maro-Itoje-in-action-during-the.jpg
Maro-Itoje.jpg
 
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lol, i love that you always have a ready made gallery of "impressive" young rugby players close at hand when ever someones physical attributes come up.
 
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