England World Cup Squad

[Geordie]

Is Martin's lineout that bad?
I think people assume that just because they are not the first choice at club doesn't mean they are poor.

I just feel Borthwick is too conservative in trusting young players than anything else.

No...hes a good prem level jumper...i just dont think hes top international level ....yet. But im sure they're working hard on that area.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Is Martin's lineout that bad?
I think people assume that just because they are not the first choice at club doesn't mean they are poor.

I just feel Borthwick is too conservative in trusting young players than anything else.

He didn't take a single line out in the games he started v Chile (9 went to Ribbans) or the Boks. 133 minutes of action.

That tells me he's not trusted yet. In time he might become banker safe on his own ball, but currently I suspect he's seen as lacking the athletic ability to adapt in the air or go after opposition ball in the way that Lawes, peak Itoje or Kruis could. Or Isiekwe can.

I commented on the Chile game at the time. Virtually all to Ribbans seemed ridiculous but that was presumably pre planned.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ribbans was calling the lineout that game, wasn't he? Seem to remember comments at the time talking about how he called everything to himself, but it made sense seeing as he'd barely played so best to stick with banker ball rather than complicate things, especially with Dan chucking in as he'd been proper dodgy in the lead up (think Ludlam took quite a few as well, who is/was his club mate)

Where did you get your lineouts-taken-stats from? I had a quick look in the usual places but couldn't see anything

It could be something as simple as Martin is more valued as a lifter - better to have him launch Curry in the air than vice versa

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ribbans was calling the lineout that game, wasn't he? Seem to remember comments at the time talking about how he called everything to himself, but it made sense seeing as he'd barely played so best to stick with banker ball rather than complicate things, especially with Dan chucking in as he'd been proper dodgy in the lead up (think Ludlam took quite a few as well, who is/was his club mate)

Where did you get your lineouts-taken-stats from? I had a quick look in the usual places but couldn't see anything

It could be something as simple as Martin is more valued as a lifter - better to have him launch Curry in the air than vice versa

Had to hunt around but in the individual matches on the RWC website. Under Player Stats / Attack there's a code for line outs won. In the Defence equivalent there's data for steals.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nice, will check it out - ESPN only counts lineouts won for the hookers, so you end up with Itoje on 0 and George on like 16

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

He didn't take a single line out in the games he started v Chile (9 went to Ribbans) or the Boks. 133 minutes of action.

That tells me he's not trusted yet. In time he might become banker safe on his own ball, but currently I suspect he's seen as lacking the athletic ability to adapt in the air or go after opposition ball in the way that Lawes, peak Itoje or Kruis could. Or Isiekwe can.

I commented on the Chile game at the time. Virtually all to Ribbans seemed ridiculous but that was presumably pre planned.

I feel again it's down to Borthwick inability to trust young players rather than ability because under Wigglesworth he was consistently Tigers 2nd choice target

 

[Everyday EggChaser]

Martin was used a lot in maul defense from SA lineouts. He regularly made a mess of SA mauls so maybe its a case of keeping him on the ground and not using energy jumping.

I also doubt steve borewick wont be working hard on lineouts with him.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I feel again it's down to Borthwick inability to trust young players rather than ability because under Wigglesworth he was consistently Tigers 2nd choice target

Yep, that's probably right although the standard of opposition in the international game is a big step up.

The interesting one will be whether Borthwick genuinely sees Dan as George's successor. I'm not convinced he will, but if he does, there's an argument for the familiarity of a club unit with an Itoje / Isiekwe row.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nice!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Sounds like the A team is back as a permanent thing,
Disappointing that Borthwick picks the 23 - would prefer it if the coaches of the A side have complete say over it, though from the article above it sounds like some of the coaches will be coming from Prem sides which is exciting but also makes sense why selection is out of their hands

 

[Geordie]

Yep, that's probably right although the standard of opposition in the international game is a big step up.

The interesting one will be whether Borthwick genuinely sees Dan as George's successor. I'm not convinced he will, but if he does, there's an argument for the familiarity of a club unit with an Itoje / Isiekwe row.

Just on Theo Dan...did anyone see the Exeter game...and Dan Frost's performance. I thought he was excellent when he came on. Is he competition for Theo Dan if they are looking for more all action style hooker?

 

[Geordie]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Sounds like the A team is back as a permanent thing,
Disappointing that Borthwick picks the 23 - would prefer it if the coaches of the A side have complete say over it, though from the article above it sounds like some of the coaches will be coming from Prem sides which is exciting but also makes sense why selection is out of their hands

Now thats great news!

 

[Which Tyler]

Sounds like the A team is back as a permanent thing,

Hope so.
Restart the 6NA, which IIRC only England and Ireland were bothering with towards the end; but any current 6N side who doesn't want to send an A-team, hand their invitation to an ERC 1st XV - and only gets it back if the ERC team withdraws at some point in the future.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just on Theo Dan...did anyone see the Exeter game...and Dan Frost's performance. I thought he was excellent when he came on. Is he competition for Theo Dan if they are looking for more all action style hooker?

Yeah Frost has been superb for Exeter, definitely should be in the conversation

George, Dan and Langdon in the 6N squad,
Frost and Blamire vs Portugal?

I know I'm biased towards Langdon but I see him as the natural successor to George so want him involved as soon as/as much as possible, whereas Dan/Frost/Blamire are all fighting for the livewire hooker shirt (kind of like the Youngs/Care duo for England, years ago, of contrasting styles)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

RFU

www.englandrugby.com

Sounds like the A team is back as a permanent thing,
Disappointing that Borthwick picks the 23 - would prefer it if the coaches of the A side have complete say over it, though from the article above it sounds like some of the coaches will be coming from Prem sides which is exciting but also makes sense why selection is out of their hands

I actually see that as a positive. This is the final step before the senior set up and means that Borthwick gets to see the players he wants to see in the positions he wants to see them in. Makes sense as part of a pathway.

 

[Which Tyler]

I actually see that as a positive. This is the final step before the senior set up and means that Borthwick gets to see the players he wants to see in the positions he wants to see them in. Makes sense as part of a pathway.

I'd say that England HC picks a "wider" squad; and the match-day coaches pick the match-day XV & 23

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I'd say that England HC picks a "wider" squad; and the match-day coaches pick the match-day XV & 23

Borthwick picks the team and they need to impressive the coaches in training to start would be good

 

[Geordie]

Yeah Frost has been superb for Exeter, definitely should be in the conversation

George, Dan and Langdon in the 6N squad,
Frost and Blamire vs Portugal?

I know I'm biased towards Langdon but I see him as the natural successor to George so want him involved as soon as/as much as possible, whereas Dan/Frost/Blamire are all fighting for the livewire hooker shirt (kind of like the Youngs/Care duo for England, years ago, of contrasting styles)

Yeah something like that. Im wondering (even as a falcon) if its worth persevering with Blamire. Theres something the head coaches and Jones team prior dont like.

Maybe for the Saxons you go Frost and a younger option as this needs to be the pathway for the England Senior team. If there are no others standing out then yes Blamire...but see how the younger ones are performing.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Could be Nic Dolly, tbf, Borthwick was a fan before - though he's barely getting any minutes for Tigers atm.
I know he's been out for a long time but 19', 24', 3', 16' is low amounts per game, especially as he played in the prem cup

 

[Scotty]

Just on Theo Dan...did anyone see the Exeter game...and Dan Frost's performance. I thought he was excellent when he came on. Is he competition for Theo Dan if they are looking for more all action style hooker?

Theo Dan and Dan Frost would be a good shout to work towards.

Didnt realise Frost was 26 though, its not an issue for me though if his form continues and gets first choice at Chiefs