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England vs. Argentina

Oh yeah, I'm saying Haskell did cause problems and carried well but thats only half the battle. Whats the point of doing that if all you're doing to do is just go to ground and either produce slow ball or get pinged for holding on?

Look at other teams like Duisatoir and Harinordoquy against South Africa. Both made huge carries and then always, always either looked for the offload or produced quick ball.

We can't keep excusing this BS because its losing us games. The weak front row isn't losing us games (sorry Melhor), even the aimless kicking isn't losing us games but its this total idiotic way we conduct ourselves at the breakdown which starves us of quick ball and even possession thats losing us games.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 07:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Oh yeah, I'm saying Haskell did cause problems and carried well but thats only half the battle. Whats the point of doing that if all you're doing to do is just go to ground and either produce slow ball or get pinged for holding on?

Look at other teams like Duisatoir and Harinordoquy against South Africa. Both made huge carries and then always, always either looked for the offload or produced quick ball.

We can't keep excusing this BS because its losing us games. The weak front row isn't losing us games (sorry Melhor), even the aimless kicking isn't losing us games but its this total idiotic way we conduct ourselves at the breakdown which starves us of quick ball and even possession thats losing us games.[/b]

That's not Haskell's fault though, that's players like Louis Deacon, Dylan Hartley and Tom Croft's fault who didn't even make to it to the breakdown. Players like Moody and Borthwick did and worked effectively, but they can't handle 8 Argentinians on their own. I think Simon Shaw and Joe Worsley will come in as they know what it takes at international level. But still, I expect a heavy defeat to New Zealand next week.
 
Its his responsibility to make the decison and every time he made a carry he had at least one England player outside of him. He has to make the call. If he gets tackled and he knows he's isolated he has to keep it going for as long as possible. Everyone else manages it, why can't we do it? We do we have to go straight to ground?

Like I said, look at Duisatoir and Harinordoquy against South Africa. They faced the same dilemmas and still got the ball away with an offload or get it away from Brussow's epic hands at the break down.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 07:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Its his responsibility to make the decison and every time he made a carry he had at least one England player outside of him. He has to make the call. If he gets tackled and he knows he's isolated he has to keep it going for as long as possible. Everyone else manages it, why can't we do it? We do we have to go straight to ground?

Like I said, look at Duisatoir and Harinordoquy against South Africa. They faced the same dilemmas and still got the ball away with an offload or get it away from Brussow's epic hands at the break down.[/b]

On very few occasions did he have players outside him, because we had f***ing Louis Deacon on the pitch, if he adopted that approach England would have made no yards whatsoever. There was NEVER another forward supporting except Borthwick or Bell because, quite frankly, players like Payne and Deacon have no right whatsoever to be playing at Twickenham, and never should do ever again. Players like Flatman, Schofield and Peter Short do these things week in week out for their clubs but get nowhere near the squad.

Haskell was one of our very few bright sparks, one of very few who i felt could walk of the pitch with their heads held high.
 
Singling out Hartley and Croft is utter ridiculous, especially after singing Borthwicks praises no less then 20 minutes ago. Hartley was the only member of the tight 5 who offered anything . Croft, maybe not his usual excellent self being stifled by the utter garbage gameplan set out by Rob Andrew, was still useful enough as much as his other wing forwards.
 
I'm just gonna paraphrase GI Joe here and say:

"Because carrying is half the battle"

and leave it at that.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Nov 15 2009, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Singling out Hartley and Croft is utter ridiculous, especially after singing Borthwicks praises no less then 20 minutes ago. Hartley was the only member of the tight 5 who offered anything . Croft, maybe not his usual excellent self being stifled by the utter garbage gameplan set out by Rob Andrew, was still useful enough as much as his other wing forwards.[/b]

Yes, Hartley offered himself in the loose, but stuck himself in the centre all day, stopping any ball going wide. Don't get me wrong, Hartley is a quality player but if anything he suffered from being. over-eager yesterday.

Croft was appaling by his standards. One of the few top quality players on show yesterday and should have stood up and seized the game. Instead he was anonymous for the whole 80 minutes.
 
Also, found out what made Hartley go nuts. Roncero was punching the guy in the head repeatedly in parts during the first half apparently. I saw the two on the ground when I was there but didn't see any fist pumping going on but others did.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Watching the replay and Fernandez is still rubbish. Borges is good and despite being a bit anonymous later Tiesi is great.

Still think Argentina are good enough to win games, even without their two star players...

Edit: Okay, I'm looking at Argentina. Argulla was great at FB but he's not a Full Back. He's a winger or even a center. Move him to wing, move Gurruchaga to FB and then you can have Comuzzi to move outside centre, and Tiesi to inside centre.

I think that backline would be really good and would work well with Borges on the other wing.[/b]

Fernandez played as he did as he was following directions. Don't just him on this one match. They way he played worked as the game was very close, even if he was unable to do anything great.

Yes, this Arg team remains good. I thought they had two wrong players in the XV who will not play vs Wales. Comuzzi will make way for Amorisino or Camacho and Abadie will be dropped for Campos. Lozada may go for Carizza too. I certainly think he should not start again. The media has said its Argentina without Contepomi and Hernandez but they have forgotten to detail the other first choices missing: Bosch, Leguizamon, Fessia, Amorisino and Camacho. With the two ENglish based test wingers returning from injury the team will be stronger. Its great that Borges played well.

I would not move Agulla from fullback, not with the avaliable players. If Marcelo Bosch had not destroyed his knee a few weeks ago then Agulla would be wing with Bosch starting as the fullback. That, or Bosch playing 12 in place of Rodriguez. ESPN Argentina named Agulla as man of the match. He is going to be 15 permanently. Its bad luck for Bosch who will play as a 10 / 12 if he is fit in time for the June tests vs Scotland and France in 2010.

Argentina's backs, if all fit right now, first and second choice would have been as follows:

9 Lalanne, Figuerola
10 Hernandez, Fernandez
11 Camacho, Borges
12 Contepomi, Fernandez
13 Tiesi, Aramburu
14 Agulla, Amorisino
15 Bosch, Agulla

Interesting then since Comuzzi and Rodrigo started and yet England could not score tries. They were on debut and are on this tour as injury replacements. Its good news for Argentina of course. The next World Cup XV is already pretty settled. Things are quite confirmed but they aren't playing together. Leonardi got his chance, thanks to the first two options for 6 both being injured, and was great. 6 is a position up for grabs and now it seems there are four men competing for the one spot: Campos (came on for Abadie), Fessia (injured), Galindo (injured) and Leonardi. Lobbe and Leguizamon are certainties for 8 and 7. Aside from 6 things look pretty settled now that the aged players are either retired or back in the team from injuries. This year has been great for los Pumas with Camacho, Amorisino, Fernandez, Fessia and now Leonardi and Rodriguez doing well on debut. The depth is far better than a year ago. Coach Phelan has cleared out a lot of players. This is why Stortoni, Todeschini and others are not in the squad any more. Argentina will have an old front row and youth virtually everywhere else except for 12 with Contepomi being a 34 year old in 2011. This tour is ideal preperation. Too many injuries though. Things have reached breaking point.

Vs Wales I want to see the following:

15 Agulla, 14 Borges, 13 Tiesi, 12 Rodriguez, 11 Amorisino, 10 Fernandez, 9 Lalanne, 8 Lobbe, 7 Campos, 6 Leonarde, 5 Albacete, 4 Carizza, 3 Scelzo, 2 Basualdo, 1 Roncero

16 Ledesma, 17 Ayerza, 18 Lozada, 19 Abadie, 20 Figuerola, 21 Urdapilleta, 22 Camacho

Ledesma should be rested for the forwards battle vs Scotland. Wales' poor front five is a good opportunity for Basualdo who is a 50 / 50 chance to be Argentina's hooker at the World Cup. Phelan has said so himself. They are unsure of Ledesma as he will be 38 years old.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LeksoRugby @ Nov 16 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
16:9

well how Englanders feel about that[/b]
Isaiah 16:9 -
Therefore I will weep bitterly for Jazer, for the vine of Sibmah; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away.

About sums it up.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 15 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LeksoRugby @ Nov 16 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
16:9

well how Englanders feel about that[/b]
Isaiah 16:9 -
Therefore I will weep bitterly for Jazer, for the vine of Sibmah; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away.

About sums it up.
[/b][/quote]


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Has someone died? We haven't even harvested anything yet! Give us a chance![/b]

It's obvious.

Jazar - Wilkinson's nickname
Heshbon and Elealeh - Johnson and Andrew
For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away - it was all looking so rosy with a nice crop of players coming through then the all fell away i.e. got injured
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wally @ Nov 14 2009, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Nov 11 2009, 07:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Leinster reject, Porn Dorm Jones:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...l-porn-video.do
Three teenage pupils have been suspended from their public school after a camera was secretly set up to film two of them having sex.

Paul Doran-Jones, 17, and James Haskell, 18, videoed Doran-Jones romping naked with his 17-year-old girlfriend in a boys' dormitory at Wellington College in Crowthorne, Berks.

The girl, who had no idea she was being filmed, was "furious" when she discovered that Doran-Jones and Haskell, a former England Under-18 rugby captain, had shown the video to other students in the £19,000-a-year school's common room.

One pupil who saw the video, recorded by a camera hidden in a cupboard, said: "It was full-on stuff. The younger boys were banned from seeing it. It's fair to say that it was obviously not the first time for either Paul or his girlfriend."

Another pupil said the pair were having a "casual relationship". "The boys showed the film to their friends. Paul's girlfriend had no idea, but found out - she was upset at first and then furious," the pupil added.

The girl, who is blonde, 6ft tall and on the books of a modelling agency, "stormed round and grabbed the film" as soon as she heard about it, the pupil said. She is believed to have since destroyed the recording.

But rumours about the video had already begun to spread and teachers quickly found out about it. Haskell and Doran-Jones were hauled before headmaster Hugh Monro and both were suspended after admitting what had happened.

The girl, a lacrosse-player, was also suspended for breaking the school's no-sex rule. All three will be allowed back to sit their A-levels and are currently studying at home. All come from well-off families in the Home Counties.

A school insider said: "The girl has been made a laughing stock and cannot face anybody. This could destroy her. What the boys did was despicable and borders on the criminal."

The pupils' parents were contacted after the incident two weeks ago and have since been "very supportive" to their children. Police have not been involved.

Haskell is now in the England Under-19 squad and is also on the books of Wasps rugby club in London. He said from his family's £1 million home near Bracknell: "I have nothing to say."

In his school profile Haskell lists his favourite food and drink as Guinness and oysters He is preparing for A-levels in politics, English literature, history and classical civilisation.

Doran-Jones is understood to have been previously been disciplined after being caught in the girls' living area.

Wellington College bursar Martin Sherwin said: "Three upper-sixth pupils were involved in an incident involving indecent behaviour. The pupils in question have been suspended by the school, but will be allowed to sit their public exams."

Old boys of the school include the Bishop of Oxford, the Rt Rev Richard Harries, television journalist Peter Snow, Pop Idol winner Will Young, impressionist Rory Bremner and 15 Victoria Cross holders. Its motto is "Heroum filii", meaning "sons of heroes".

The school has 750 boys aged 13-18 and 50 girls in the sixth form.

In 1996 seven 14-year-old boys were expelled after the exposure of a drugs and theft ring.[/b]


[/b][/quote]
How long ago was this? And any idea of the girlfriend's name? I want to google image this slut.
[/b][/quote]

By the sounds this girl had no idea, so is probably about as much a slut as maybe your mother? Not a fair shot mate.

As for England v Argentina, sounds like the fans had every right to be annoyed as hell. Sounds like 20mins of rugby amidst 60 minutes of boobery from both sides.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Nov 15 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 15 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LeksoRugby @ Nov 16 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
16:9

well how Englanders feel about that[/b]
Isaiah 16:9 -
Therefore I will weep bitterly for Jazer, for the vine of Sibmah; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away.

About sums it up.
[/b][/quote]


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Has someone died? We haven't even harvested anything yet! Give us a chance![/b]

It's obvious.

Jazar - Wilkinson's nickname
Heshbon and Elealeh - Johnson and Andrew
For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away - it was all looking so rosy with a nice crop of players coming through then the all fell away i.e. got injured
[/b][/quote]

Yes but we need to have actually harvested (i.e. achieved) something previously first. Having a load of props, Harry Ellis and Toby Flood injured doesn't excuse England's performance.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 16 2009, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ali12 @ Nov 15 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Nov 15 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LeksoRugby @ Nov 16 2009, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
16:9

well how Englanders feel about that[/b]
Isaiah 16:9 -
Therefore I will weep bitterly for Jazer, for the vine of Sibmah; I will drench you with my tears, O Heshbon and Elealeh; For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away.

About sums it up.
[/b][/quote]


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Nov 15 2009, 09:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Has someone died? We haven't even harvested anything yet! Give us a chance![/b]

It's obvious.

Jazar - Wilkinson's nickname
Heshbon and Elealeh - Johnson and Andrew
For the shouting over your summer fruits and your harvest has fallen away - it was all looking so rosy with a nice crop of players coming through then the all fell away i.e. got injured
[/b][/quote]

Yes but we need to have actually harvested (i.e. achieved) something previously first. Having a load of props, Harry Ellis and Toby Flood injured doesn't excuse England's performance.
[/b][/quote]

Still, it does indicate that there is a hopeful road forward as these guys come back.It sucks for any team to have a bunch of talent unavailable (or in Englands case, often not even selected).
 
Bob Dwyers take from heavens game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
England v Argentina.

England’s legion of fans turned up in huge numbers hoping for some positive signs of development from their team against a well-under-strength Argentina side. The Pumas were without two of their world class players in Juan Martin Hernandez and Juan Martin Leguizamon, plus their experienced goal-kicker Felipe Contepomi, and indeed, fielded novices at scrum-half and fly-half.

England, on the other hand, were looking for a step-up from their recent form, with the inclusion up front of James Haskell and Dylan Hartley and the in-form Paul Hodgson at scrum-half. Alas for them, this was not to be and the first half was dismal. Wilkinson was as accurate as ever with his kicks for goal, but was poor out of hand. Argentina were poor for goal, but accurate out of hand, and were able to put loads of pressure on the hapless Ugo Monye, at this stage playing at fullback. With numerous opportunities resulting from frequent England handling errors, Argentina were able to exploit space down the blindside, on both sides of the pitch, and came close on more than one occasion.

Faultless positional play by Wilkinson saved England on more than one occasion and poor kicking for goal, both penalty and drop, let Argentina down.

England, to be fair, tried to construct some advantage with the ball in hand, but, whilst their intent was good, their execution was poor. All quality play derives from quality technique and this was absent. Perhaps the coaching staff will eventually notice this and employ someone who can help with the rectification.

This attitude eventually bore fruit for England, and Haskell, who continues to promise much, made the break and Banahan eventually benefitted for the match winning score.

England sorely need some of their injured army of players to return. The prop situation is dire â€" not so much talk of English scrummaging superiority now. Thank God they don’t have to play Italy any time soon! Moody and Wilkinson continue to hold the team together.

Argentina will be much the better for the match and will have a whole second week together before they play Wales. This limited preparation would dismay the coaching staff of the more wealthy “super-power†teams, who insist on interminable squad sessions and practice matches for practice matches. Makes you wonder what they actually do with all of this time together â€" maybe more fitness and strength tests![/b]
 
Mick Cleary at the Telegraph put it better:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
England are playing like jumpy schoolkids, terrified of offending those on high. There is no initiative, no spark, no nerve. They lack cojones, as the Argentines might say. Against Australia, England waited until the game was well and truly done before they gave it a lash. Here, the more upbeat tempo came only after a half-time pep talk from the coaches. Why? Where is the leadership, either from the captain, Steve Borthwick, or the half-back decision-makers? Johnson spoke about getting messages on to the field at one point. Why do a team of professional athletes need messages? Why not send a milk bottle and some rusks while they're at it? England are badly in need of liberation.[/b]
 
Well didn't England get lucky, the only way they didn't lose that game was the Argentinians inabilty to make relativley simple kicks at goal, they should have been 18-9 up at half time if they had made t6heir kicks.

What I don't get with England is the way they "attack", scrum-half to fly half to front row. How is that going to pose a threat to any defense if they know that the prop standing at 13 is going to run at you. GET OUT THEY WAY FATBOYS! How many times did Hartley get the ball in the midfeild and then run at the centres who promptly stop him.

Bananaman saved his short-term career by scoring as he had a poor game and wouldnt play againset New Zealand otherwise.
 
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