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England v Scotland

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Mar 21 2009, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hall @ Mar 21 2009, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sir. Speedy @ Mar 21 2009, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh ****, now we'll get Tait fans wanking over how 'awesome' that try was.

TAIT FOR TEH LIONZ!!1![/b]

Clearly...


[/b][/quote]
It was more directed at every Englishman who doesn't post here, since nobody here really rates him.
[/b][/quote]
*Except danny, but that's to be expected.
 
If you'd have told me we'd have finished second, losing twice on the road narrowly to Ireland and Wales, crushing Italy and France and comfortably beating Scotland, I'd have taken that. It was always going to be a difficult tournament, and at least we appear to have some direction at the moment to take into the future. Quite often England as a nation are accused of being arrogant. We've been generally quite pessimistic all tournament but shouldn't be ashamed of our performance. We know we can do better but it was a learning curve for everyone and we finished second.

I wonder who'll be most confident going into next year. I cant imagine the Irish expecting another GS as the Welsh seemed to this tournament. Hopefully the Italians can wake up a bit, pleased that Parisse was the man to get their try as he's been excellent. Another wooden spoon, and to be honest the coach deserves it. They appear bereft of a gameplan.
 
Yes. Call me optimistic but if next year's 6N were to be played right now, I reckon we'd have a good chance of a grand slam, especially with Wales and Ireland at home.

Obviously Ireland are the best team atm, and France and Wales are competitive, but there's not that much difference between the 'big 4'... all potentially decent sides; ireland are the ones who know how to win best but none are anwywhere near the level required to lord it over the SH teams.

Yet again, we have a 6N that says little for the standard of NH rugby, aside from physicality.

On the subject of Thom Evans... for a Scottish wing he's revolutionary in that he is noticably quicker than the forwards. But were he English (which he basically is anyway!), he'd be far down on a list of wingers I'd pick. And he's better than Lamont...

England can certainly build on this.

Sheridan is hyped up to unbeleivable levels, which means that when he inevitably doesn't reach them he looks crap. I think he's a solid prop, certainly of international quality, a good scrummager and good in the loose, even if he isn't amazing. Vicekry and White are both getting on, and I think it's high time we found another young tighthead to fill their boots.

Obviously you have the likes of Tarbh and Mite who decide they don't like players and criticise their every move, but if you look at it with 2 eyes you'll see that Lee Mears is a very good hooker. He doesn't carry the ball like a bull, but he's got good hands, gets around the field, throws in well and I'd pick him for the Lions. So hooker's sorted for the near future.

At lock.. hmmm. If you ignore Shaw who's going to be pensioned off soon, then we have no locks who will make yards with sheer bulk. We can pick Borthwick and Kennedy to rule the lineout, but I don't see any locks that will really be a presence in open play. This should be our biggest priority.

Back row should be fine. We suffered this 6N because Rees was injured, but with him back we can have a proper 7 in the side. At 6 both Croft and Haskell are fine players, I wouldn't car eif you picked one or the other. And at 8... f*** Easter, it's time to give Crane and Narraway a proper shot. Either way, a back row of Croft/ Haskell, Rees, Crane/ Narraway is capable of ccompeting with any in the world.

At scrum half, I'd again hope people would ignore the pre-determined spite from Tarbh and Mite and recognise that Ellis is a very competent 9. Otherwise, Care is a quality player, so this position doesn't short change us.

10. Goode can gtfo. Flood played very well towards the end of this 6N, and with any luck Cipriani will rediscover last year's form and grow into the world class 10 he's capable of being. So in theory this position has good competition but it needs work.

Centres - Flutey has proved that, behind ap competitive pack, he's a classy 12. He makes things happen, which is exactly what you need. Tindall is a decent stop-gap but will soon be well past it. It's time we put Tait in, or if they want more physicality, someone like Jon Clarke or Hipkiss who are both good players. Turner-Hall is also waiting in the wings.

Wing. Cueto is a solid player with great defence and he scores tries. I'm happy with him on one wing, and then the other wing is reserved for any one of 5 speedsters - Sackey, Monye, Ojo, Simpson-Daniel, Strettle are all lighting quick and I wouldn't mind which of them was picked because they haven't let us down defensively and they score tries, which is the measure of a good winger.

Armitage has proved himself the 2nd best fullback in Britain, and only Kearney blarney would disagree. Otherwise, Foden, Morgan and Abendanon are all (flaky) options.

So in summary, England have, essentially a decent team capable of causing trouble for any side in the world. We must find a lock and outside centre, but otherwise it is evident we have the makings of a half decent side.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Mar 21 2009, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I think all this Scotland Bashing is harsh. They're strong enough from 2-9. And they have the Evanses... Yeah. And if you add the return of the Good Lamont next year and Godman/Jackson aint that bad and they're certainly far better off than Italy and with a couple more exciting backs and there'll be a competition with 5 strong teams![/b]

They can find as many players as they want, I just don't think the mentality is there to challenge at the moment.
 
that's fine GG you keep Ellis in your side then and see how many grand slams that brings you in the next few years but nothing you have said has convinced me that he should be in the squad let alone the side, bar the usual oh I'm just being one eyed :rolleyes: it staggers belief that people were calling for Care to be dropped for his card in Dublin given what was starting ahead of him and yesterday was proof perfect of the difference you get with Care and Ellis.
 
Horrible game and now I have to deal with English WUM mates deluded enough to think that England are better than Wales because of points difference.
 
I agree with GG for the most part. I don't mind Lee Meers one bit but Ellis really is only mediocre. Care by a mile.

armitage certainly did have a better 6N than Kearney So I'll wait a while before argueing with that one again.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Mar 22 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Horrible game and now I have to deal with English WUM mates deluded enough to think that England are better than Wales because of points difference.[/b]

Yeah, just ask them who won Wales vs England.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Monkeypigeon @ Mar 22 2009, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Mar 22 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Horrible game and now I have to deal with English WUM mates deluded enough to think that England are better than Wales because of points difference.[/b]

Yeah, just ask them who won Wales vs England.
[/b][/quote]

You won't find any on TRF, we all recodnise how fortunate <strike>Johnson</strike> Andrew was to finish Joint second with France on Wales. 606 is the place for that bullshit.

And GG, you're mostly right with your point, but you're miles off with Mears, Sheridan, Haskell and Ellis. None of them are near good enough.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meh @ Mar 22 2009, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Horrible game and now I have to deal with English WUM mates deluded enough to think that England are better than Wales because of points difference.[/b]

Really don't think people on this forum do that; if anyone appears biased on here they usually have some reason to back up their point... the way things are currently I'd expect England to beat Wales at Twickenham and lose at the Millennium if they were to play a 2 match series now. I really think Wales have gone backwards down to England's level.

Tarbh, I agree that Care is a technically better scrum half. But Care also is crap at making decisions. I'll haul up an example from yesterday just before his drop-goal, when we were metres from the line, with options left and Care decided to go blind with no support and got turned over. Ellis rarely makes the wrong decisions, he's good at spotting space behind the defence and he sweeps as well as anyone. I'd certainly rather have him in really tight games, and it's good to bring a more snappy player like Care on to take advantage of a tired back row.

I don't need to argue about Mears, Sheridan and Haskell because I've never heard precisely why they're 'nowhere near good enough.'
 
yes but Care can only get to that level of decision making through experience, he's only 22 afterall. I honestly don't think Ellis would have sat back for that drop goal, given the damage that England's back's are capable of you need quick service which you won't get from Ellis, it's the same with O'Leary and it's infuriating to see players having a cup of tea before they get the ball out of a ruck.
 
Hadden must go, or at least relinquish he head coach status, we need someone who...knows what he's doing.
 
what options though are there for Glasgow if presumably Lineen gets the Scotland gig?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 22 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I don't need to argue about Mears, Sheridan and Haskell because I've never heard precisely why they're 'nowhere near good enough.'[/b]

Mears: Reasionable lineout thrower and has a decent partnership with Stevens in the lose (who'd rather inhale 3/4 of his over-inflated paycheque, so's rightfully not playing for the next 2 years), but he is a **** poor scrummager and never looks interested on the contact play. A medeocre backup player during Englands worst ever era, only plays for England because of the BathMafia.

Haskell: Rated very highly by himself - Mostly due to being built up and compared to Uncle Lawrence who was long past his best. Takes after Vickery in decision making and is a walking penalty. Also is protected by Probyn and Blackett so acts above the law. Not a patch on Croft or Robshaw. Will never be an 8.

Sheridan: 6'97", 736kg mountain of muscle with no technical ability whatsoever. <strike>Often</strike> Always had on toast by any tighthead worth their salt - Even Australians. Also never makes the running yards which he's apparently renouned for.

Ellis: Thug. Cheat. Gobby. Poor pass. Blind alleys. Slow service. Stupid face. Leicester scum. Walking penalty count. Should be a straight fight between Care and Hodgson for the 9 shirt.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dundeesmiffy @ Mar 22 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Hadden must go, or at least relinquish he head coach status, we need someone who...knows what he's doing.[/b]

In fairness Hadden's done as well as he can with the **** he's handed. Face it, Scotland have one world class player in Blair and he was off-colour this 6 nations. They have 1 prop, which doesn't make a front row. White hasn't been any good for a few years and without Hines the 2nd row is distinctly average. There's a number of decent back-row players but none are anything special. Then you get to the fact that they don't have a 10 or a 12, and the rest of the backs are either slightly past it or too inexperienced or too injured.

Scotland, with this groupd of players, will do well to take a scalp off the 'big 4' in the coming years; if they do it's likely to be England when they get fired up to play us at Murrayfield.
 
GG, you made the point that Mite and Tarbh decide whether or not they like a player and then criticize everything they do, which is true to a certain extent. But call me crazy, haven't you done the exact same thing with Kearney and Bowe over the course of the six nations?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 22 2009, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dundeesmiffy @ Mar 22 2009, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hadden must go, or at least relinquish he head coach status, we need someone who...knows what he's doing.[/b]

In fairness Hadden's done as well as he can with the **** he's handed. Face it, Scotland have one world class player in Blair and he was off-colour this 6 nations. They have 1 prop, which doesn't make a front row. White hasn't been any good for a few years and without Hines the 2nd row is distinctly average. There's a number of decent back-row players but none are anything special. Then you get to the fact that they don't have a 10 or a 12, and the rest of the backs are either slightly past it or too inexperienced or too injured.

Scotland, with this groupd of players, will do well to take a scalp off the 'big 4' in the coming years; if they do it's likely to be England when they get fired up to play us at Murrayfield.
[/b][/quote]

Done as well as possible with the **** he's been handed? No Evanses in the first match says otherwise.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MunsterMan @ Mar 22 2009, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
GG, you made the point that Mite and Tarbh decide whether or not they like a player and then criticize everything they do, which is true to a certain extent. But call me crazy, haven't you done the exact same thing with Kearney and Bowe over the course of the six nations?[/b]

No, I said that Tommy Bowe was a decent player but I didn't think he was that great, and I also said somewhere on this forum that he had a cracker yesterday. You'll notice he's not in my team of flops. So no, I haven't criticized his every move.

Kearney has been hyped up beyond beleif by the Irish and particularly Leinster fans. I've always been open to the idea he's a class player and I've said I was waiting for him to prove it. But we then have people comparing him with Lee Byrne who is a proven class act.

I was at the Wasps vs Leinster game and saw nothing special from him; so I thought maybe he could show me his salt in the 6N. And throughout the course of the whole tournament he's 1) defended admirably 2) kicked averagely and 3) attacked anonymously. To the extent that he was subbed off at a key time in a Grand Slam decider in a swap with someone as floppy as Geordan Murphy.

What's more, it's been assumed that he's a shoe-in for the Lions. I said after the first couple games of the 6N that Armitage was at least as good as Kearney... at the end of the 6N I'm very confident in saying Armitage is a far superior player. Kearney's talked up for his attacking zest, but playing in a dominant team, not once did we see him shred open a defence, which we saw several times from both Armitage and Byrne.

With Ellis, Mears and co. at least there's a debate as to whether they're as good as people say they are. With Kearney, even the Irish aren't talking about him anymore.
 
Kearney's best work in Green was against Australia and New Zealand in the summer, superb defensive performance against New Zealand and superb Attacking performance against Australia. I don't know if you have seen either game but that is why people had him pencilled in for the Lions, as well as a couple of "Wow" moments in the ML. Armitage and Byrne have had better six nations definitely, and are ahead of him in the Lions pecking order but I wouldn't call either superior in terms of ability just yet. Thanks for clarifying GG, I still think you were a bit overly critical but you have every right to be.
 
Kearney has it, but was told not to show it in the 6N. Steady as she goes. That's the frustrating thing about Kidney. But Kidney was proved right.

I suppose it's a mark of Kearney's maturity that he did what he was told. But then he got subbed? He needs to kick off a bit more, upset the master plan. I'm sure he can do it. Otherwise he'll end up like Darse. (Who still has it, BTW!)
 

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