England v Italy

[monkeypigeon]

Why not slip Shane Geraghty in at centre?

I've been thinking about the whole Bergomasco thing, and I'd honestly rather have David Wallace as my scrum half than a ponce like Whitaker.

I agree with the lets give the flanker a chance at scrumhalf contingent.

 

[danny]

I think we should play a conservative game this year. Our confidence is shot and we have never been a flair side like France pre-Laporte. Keep it simple and get some confidence back. The only team we "should" beat easily is Italy so now is the time to build momentum. Similar to the world cup.

 

[Hall]

Jamie Noon confirmed at outside centre.

The lesser of two evils?

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hall @ Feb 6 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Jamie Noon confirmed at outside centre.

The lesser of two evils?[/b]

easy option for Johnson, if that's the team that's lining up in Cardiff next week Wales would be chomping even moreso than usual.

 

[monkeypigeon]

Jamie Noon.... Ha.

I'd rather turn Shane Geraghty into an Outside cente for the day. He'd hard;ey need to put in a big defrensve performance and when Goode is missing everuthing there'd be another option.

 

[alexrugby]

I think England will simply bury Italy on the Arena

 

[Sir Speedy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danny @ Feb 6 2009, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I think we should play a conservative game this year. Our confidence is shot and we have never been a flair side like France pre-Laporte. Keep it simple and get some confidence back. The only team we "should" beat easily is Italy so now is the time to build momentum. Similar to the world cup.[/b]

I don't view it like that.

I view his selections as ones that aim to get the public off of his back. Goode is a pragmatic player, and is efficient enough to kick England to a victory if that is necessary. You talk about 'building up confidence' in the team, but this confidence will be instilled in the players who play the match tomorrow: Goode, Ellis and Noon are not going to be starting for England in the '11 World Cup opening match purely because some won't be around then, and not one of those three is international standard.

I understand that Johnson wants to get on the good side of the media, but by picking these players you aren't setting the team up for a good future. An ambitious selection would've been to pick - obviously - Gereghty, Foden and Tait. What's strange is that these players have being playing far better for their clubs than the players who have been picked for to play tomorrow. What's ridiculous is that Ellis - according to the rugby club - hasn't started for Leicester since October. He's behind Julien Dupuy who in honesty is nowhere near contention for the French jersey.

These players who have been benched/left unpicked aren't going to get any 'confidence' from watching their team win without them. I'm also surprised to see Cipriani dropped all the way to the Saxons. Of all the games in this 6N that Cipriani would have a chance to regain some confidence, this one was it. Is Johnson going to recall him to play in Cardiff or at Croke Park? Most likely not, but under the current circumstance, that's a good thing. Frankly, Wales and Ireland will be drooling at the prospect of playing against Goode and Ellis and most especially Noon, regardless of how they play against Italy.

If the younger players I mentioned above were picked, we would have seen a more attacking-minded game from England tomorrow, and potentially a high scoring one. What Johnson has done is picked a side to grind out a boring win against a superior Italian pack, which is beggar's belief when put like that. You look at the shambles that is the Italian backline, and then the snorefest that is the England backline, and you wonder why the hell Johnson didn't at least try something new against the worst backline in the tournament.

A predict the England pack will be walloped into oblivion all afternoon, but Goode's boot will put them in the right positions and Italian indiscipline when pinned back will allow England to win with penalties.

After that, Johnson better hope that Wales have an off day in Cardiff, or the media will be breathing down his neck again. Another year wasted again for England it appears.

 

[Prestwick]

My question is where to strike the balance. Consistently conservative selection doesn't bode well for building a team but neither is Livremont's approach of a grand magical selectionr roundabout. Who will be France's half-back pairing next weekend? Nobody knows! And thats how it will be for France all the way until 2010 when some of the older authorities on French rugby will quietly say to him, "right, you've had your fun but now you'll have to pick your XV and stick to it."

TL;DR summary: Constantly conservative selection harms a team's development but then so does wildly throwing random combinations of new players. Where is the balance?

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

My question is where to strike the balance. Consistently conservative selection doesn't bode well for building a team but neither is Livremont's approach of a grand magical selectionr roundabout. Who will be France's half-back pairing next weekend? Nobody knows! And thats how it will be for France all the way until 2010 when some of the older authorities on French rugby will quietly say to him, "right, you've had your fun but now you'll have to pick your XV and stick to it."

TL;DR summary: Constantly conservative selection harms a team's development but then so does wildly throwing random combinations of new players. Where is the balance?[/b]

there's more consistency of selection from the French than there is from England. Unless they're injured I'd expect the 2 French half backs to start next week, you can't say that about England

 

[Sir Speedy]

Well yeh. Neither works well if you are relentless with your tactics, though I condone France's 'grand magic selection roundabout' more than England's 'pick the same players 'til they're fifty' tactics because at least some new players are getting international exposure. Parra certainly looked excellent last year and I imagine he'll feature frequently in the future. Same can't be said about Noon, who didn't look good last year - or ever before - and definitely will not look good come '11. I was always skeptical about Johnson, and now he seems to proving my skepticism fair.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Feb 6 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My question is where to strike the balance. Consistently conservative selection doesn't bode well for building a team but neither is Livremont's approach of a grand magical selectionr roundabout. Who will be France's half-back pairing next weekend? Nobody knows! And thats how it will be for France all the way until 2010 when some of the older authorities on French rugby will quietly say to him, "right, you've had your fun but now you'll have to pick your XV and stick to it."

TL;DR summary: Constantly conservative selection harms a team's development but then so does wildly throwing random combinations of new players. Where is the balance?[/b]

there's more consistency of selection from the French than there is from England. Unless they're injured I'd expect the 2 French half backs to start next week, you can't say that about England
[/b][/quote]

Really? I dispute that. France has swung from Michalak to Beauxis to Skrela to Ellisade to Trinh-Duc back to Skrela and then to Ellisade and now back to Beauxis who hasn't even been playing at 10 consistently this season. There has not been a consistent selection at fly half under Livremont.

England by contrast have tried to be choose a primary 10 and a back up. With one or two experiments (Flood & Geraghty in 2007 and Flood again against New Zealand in 2008) England have tried to stick with Wilkinson & Flood and then Cipriani & Flood. Goode is here in a capacity only in my mind as an emergency back up as Cirpriani has been deliberately placed in the Saxons to get confidence again and it'd be suicidal right now to go with Flood and obviously they must be bent on forcing Geraghty into playing as a center.

It gets more and more depressing as you go down the team sheet. Andy Sheridan as been at tighthead since forever ditto Vickery at loosehead. You may have seen Matt Stevens start occassionally but it has always been made perfectly clear that Vickery is the loosehead prop of choice for England and Steven's is his understudy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that while England may have tried other players but they've (wrongly I believe) made it crystal clear that they want to see x, y and z playing in specific positions. This is why us England fans are so depressed about the current situation and it is why you guys are so bemused about why we are so depressed.

France however aren't doing that, they aren't dropping any hints about what kind of team they want for either the short or long term. Livremont did go on record to pour scorn on any suggestions that he should start focusing on a team for 2011 saying that there are still 23 games until the World Cup to experiment with. For all we know, Livremont's magical selection merry go round could keep going all the way until 2011!!!

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Feb 6 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My question is where to strike the balance. Consistently conservative selection doesn't bode well for building a team but neither is Livremont's approach of a grand magical selectionr roundabout. Who will be France's half-back pairing next weekend? Nobody knows! And thats how it will be for France all the way until 2010 when some of the older authorities on French rugby will quietly say to him, "right, you've had your fun but now you'll have to pick your XV and stick to it."

TL;DR summary: Constantly conservative selection harms a team's development but then so does wildly throwing random combinations of new players. Where is the balance?[/b]

there's more consistency of selection from the French than there is from England. Unless they're injured I'd expect the 2 French half backs to start next week, you can't say that about England
[/b][/quote]

Really? I dispute that. France has swung from Michalak to Beauxis to Skrela to Ellisade to Trinh-Duc back to Skrela and then to Ellisade and now back to Beauxis who hasn't even been playing at 10 consistently this season. There has not been a consistent selection at fly half under Livremont.

England by contrast have tried to be choose a primary 10 and a back up. With one or two experiments (Flood & Geraghty in 2007 and Flood again against New Zealand in 2008) England have tried to stick with Wilkinson & Flood and then Cipriani & Flood. Goode is here in a capacity only in my mind as an emergency back up as Cirpriani has been deliberately placed in the Saxons to get confidence again and it'd be suicidal right now to go with Flood and obviously they must be bent on forcing Geraghty into playing as a center.

It gets more and more depressing as you go down the team sheet. Andy Sheridan as been at tighthead since forever ditto Vickery at loosehead. You may have seen Matt Stevens start occassionally but it has always been made perfectly clear that Vickery is the loosehead prop of choice for England and Steven's is his understudy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that while England may have tried other players but they've (wrongly I believe) made it crystal clear that they want to see x, y and z playing in specific positions. This is why us England fans are so depressed about the current situation and it is why you guys are so bemused about why we are so depressed.

France however aren't doing that, they aren't dropping any hints about what kind of team they want for either the short or long term. Livremont did go on record to pour scorn on any suggestions that he should start focusing on a team for 2011 saying that there are still 23 games until the World Cup to experiment with. For all we know, Livremont's magical selection merry go round could keep going all the way until 2011!!!
[/b][/quote]

Tillous Borde started in the Autumn and is still there.

 

[Prestwick]

Playing Tillous Borde for three games doesn't exactly strike me as consistent selection. And to be frank his place is still built on a foundation as strong as jelly floating on a stormy ocean so that isn't a good example in my eyes.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Playing Tillous Borde for three games doesn't exactly strike me as consistent selection. And to be frank his place is still built on a foundation as strong as jelly floating on a stormy ocean so that isn't a good example in my eyes.[/b]

well he's actually been there since the Summer which is neither here nor there, he played with Beauxis at under-21 level when they won the world cup, with Ntamack as coach, so this is a much more consistent selection than what we're seeing with England.

 

[Prestwick]

Possibly but as you've failed to take into account the classic saying "one swallow doesn't make a summer," England are still more consistent as a whole on the team. Livremont still hasn't nailed down his XV and won't do so until the end of 2009 at least I'd say.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Possibly but as you've failed to take into account the classic saying "one swallow doesn't make a summer," England are still more consistent as a whole on the team. Livremont still hasn't nailed down his XV and won't do so until the end of 2009 at least I'd say.[/b]

and you think Johnson has?

 

[Prestwick]

In the way that he seems bent on selecting a team made up of a core of certain players, yes, yes he has or at the very least a lot closer than Livremont.

People are making the mistake of thinking that England's selectors are using things such as "imagination" and "creativity" when they choose an XV. To suggest that they're random and inconsistent in their selection is to disguise the fact that they've been more or less picking from the same small group of players with a few execeptions since 2007.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In the way that he seems bent on selecting a team made up of a core of certain players, yes, yes he has or at the very least a lot closer than Livremont.

People are making the mistake of thinking that England's selectors are using things such as "imagination" and "creativity" when they choose an XV. To suggest that they're random and inconsistent in their selection is to disguise the fact that they've been more or less picking from the same small group of players with a few execeptions since 2007.[/b]

well they're only picking from the same small group of players cause they handicapped themselves with the agreement between the RFU and Premier Rugby.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Feb 6 2009, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

In the way that he seems bent on selecting a team made up of a core of certain players, yes, yes he has or at the very least a lot closer than Livremont.[/b]

well there was consistency of selection in the Autumn, only minimal changes throughout that series and the team picked for Ireland shows 11 players who started in at least 2 of those matches.

 

[SaintsFan_Schweinsteiger_Webby]

Originally posted by Sir Speedy
It gets more and more depressing as you go down the team sheet. Andy Sheridan as been at tighthead since forever ditto Vickery at loosehead. You may have seen Matt Stevens start occassionally but it has always been made perfectly clear that Vickery is the loosehead prop of choice for England and Steven's is his understudy.

Sheridan is a loosehead. Vickery is a tighthead.

Vickery has lost it, but nobody has come close to pushing Sheridan out of the team as yet.