England Six Nations squad 2022

[Vieux Talonneur]

Fra were pretty ordinary v Ita but it has been very obvious how they've been building over the last few years. I have seldom seen such clarity from Jones, particularly not recently.

Irrespective of what happened vs Sco, Jones feels like a coach on a downward trajectory in this 2nd World Cup cycle. He's into his 60s, has been coaching us for a very long time and first coached internationally 21 years ago which is eons in the terms of this job. The 3 6N winning coaches at the weekend were all aged 46 - 52. Erasmus was 47 when he led the Boks to the last RWC. Age in itself is meaningless, but it increasingly looks like a younger man's game. What worked in 2017 let alone pre 2010 whether tactically or in man management looks prehistoric now.

We can talk about changes to back room staff, over loyalty to certain players, players out of position, leadership vacuums, lack of depth in certain positions etc, but the fundamental question is whether Jones is improving as a coach and does he improve individual players / the team as much as other coaches.

It's been a rollercoaster with Jones - some massive highs and some equally massive lows. My take is that whatever the best of Jones was we've already seen it. If that's the case, players will sense it.

I've never thought that Jones could be sacked pre RWC but if the rest of the 6N plays out as I expect we'll end up with 2 wins against obviously poor teams and 3 losses which isn't really good enough following last year and 'building for the RWC' will look ever more like blind faith. This could leave us / Jones in a very difficult position.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Am I the only one who thinks if Launchbury gets back to full fitness and Kruis comes back that Itoje position should be under threat?

Thought he was pretty anonymous v Scotland.

I don't think age has anything to do with it.
Eddie has always been like that he's stubborn. Even when he was coaching Aus back in 2003 he was stubborn.

Also if you think coaching is a younger man's game then how is age in itself meaningless?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Am I the only one who thinks if Launchbury gets back to full fitness and Kruis comes back that Itoje position should be under threat?

Thought he was pretty anonymous v Scotland.

I don't think age has anything to do with it.
Eddie has always been like that he's stubborn. Even when he was coaching Aus back in 2003 he was stubborn.

Also if you think coaching is a younger man's game then how is age in itself meaningless?

No, you're really not.

The trend seems to be more towards younger coaches. That doesn't mean that an older coach can't work, but if you're an outlier to an apparent trend you really do need to have a good look in the mirror to make sure you're not missing a trick. You're right on the perennial stubbornness, but what can look edgy / groundbreaking from someone in their 40s can look jaded and out of touch from that same person in their 60s who is also another generation away from understanding what makes 20 somethings tick.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Am I the only one who thinks if Launchbury gets back to full fitness and Kruis comes back that Itoje position should be under threat?

Don't think anyone should be undroppable but Itoje is as close as it comes for EJ

I've said it before but EJ never seemed to rate Launch as highly as the rest of us did/do, so I can't see Launch threatening Itoje's position

 

[Scotty]

Don't think anyone should be undroppable but Itoje is as close as it comes for EJ

I've said it before but EJ never seemed to rate Launch as highly as the rest of us did/do, so I can't see Launch threatening Itoje's position

True and i think Itoje will be there as long as EJ is. Not sure who he'd replace him with if Kruis didnt come back. Also Kruis is 31 now so while if he's good enough he should be in but i doubt he would replace Itoje.

Launch may not be preferred by EJ but surely he is preffered to an average form/prem player Ewels. Even if we start Isiekwe and Itoje and launch benches to ease him back in.

 

[Jakedood]

As a second row Itoje is maybe being done by a little here

On the basics of his lineout work (contested a lot but won every time), his scrummaging and his offensive rucks he was near flawless

He gave away one penalty for an offside at which the hindmost foot of the ruck moved while he was trying to time a chargedown (saw some commentators mention him for jumping across, but I'm fairly sure that was Isiekwe)

Add to this he was a nuisance in and around the breakdown as always, sometimes requiring extra men service it, did make a charge down (although a foot further forward than the hindmost foot) and made some really sizeable dominant tackles, I think he did just fine for a solid 8/10 performance

The only area I think he could really improve is his carrying in the tight, using that explosive power more effectively there

 

[Crash Hamster]

Yeah, but think of the lineout options with
Launchbury Kruis
Itoje Curry Lawes...

/sarcasm.

We seemed to have plenty of lineout going to Ludlam, so the 'extra lineout option' argument about using a converted lock at flanker has been proved to be as hollow as it sounds.

 

[Scotty]

Yeah, but think of the lineout options with
Launchbury Kruis
Itoje Curry Lawes...

/sarcasm.

We seemed to have plenty of lineout going to Ludlam, so the 'extra lineout option' argument about using a converted lock at flanker has been proved to be as hollow as it sounds.

You got it wrong.

Launchbury Kruis
Itoje Ewels Lawes

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

When all are available I certainly think Itoje could use some bench time to help him refocus. Everyone needs a kick from time to time.

I've said it a zillion times before but it's all about best team / combinations not best individuals. Itoje is small for an international lock, but when he's really on it he can influence any game. I'd say those days are getting rarer and then you're left with a slightly underpowered lock who distorts the balance in the row / front 5 and is prone to giving away penalties.

Spose it depends on the level of risk you want to run. Kruis and Launch are more likely to give you 7.5 or 8 out of 10 every game. Itoje is much more likely to give you a 10 or a 6.

But I doubt Jones would ever drop him.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lawes is imo our best 6.

I get the lock/6 hybrid isn't popular personally I feel that now it's a pretty outdated point.

Locks aren't your standard unathletic giraffes like they used to be.

 

[Jakedood]

When all are available I certainly think Itoje could use some bench time to help him refocus. Everyone needs a kick from time to time.

I've said it a zillion times before but it's all about best team / combinations not best individuals. Itoje is small for an international lock, but when he's really on it he can influence any game. I'd say those days are getting rarer and then you're left with a slightly underpowered lock who distorts the balance in the row / front 5 and is prone to giving away penalties.

Spose it depends on the level of risk you want to run. Kruis and Launch are more likely to give you 7.5 or 8 out of 10 every game. Itoje is much more likely to give you a 10 or a 6.

But I doubt Jones would ever drop him.

While weight is a part of a scrummage, Itoje is undoubtedly leaner than most locks, but quite possibly more powerful, and I feel his size is used a lot. He's still 115kg's (first source i found), and scrums as tighthead lock rather than loosehead in most games. Using weight as an indicator may be a little old fashioned, especially given the technique with which he uses his weight

I'd also say he seems like the kind of man who is never satisfied, always trying to achieve more regardless of his last performance, and a lot of accounts would back this up. A very self critical individual, so I dont think benching him would make any difference whatsoever

And on the final point, given what i mentioned above, he performed the basics of his position pretty impeccably at the weekend, so I would really hesitate to give him a 6, and I think there's been a marked difference in the number of penalties he's given away since that horrid Wales game last year
I think it's slightly harsh, he has a pretty high floor level, and a much higher ceiling than those two above.

Also defended well in terms of his recognising of targets, something Isiekwe failed to do for the Graham try by shooting up on Itoje's target

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's really not a coincidence that Itoje played his best rugby when Kruis was in the side IMO. Kruis complimented Itoje in a way that no other lock has been able to do since.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

It's really not a coincidence that Itoje played his best rugby when Kruis was in the side IMO. Kruis complimented Itoje in a way that no other lock has been able to do since.

Comes back to best combinations and maybe club familiarity - themes that have raised their heads before.

I think we also have to recognise that locks generally have become more athletic with more rounded skill sets since Itoje first burst on the scene - maybe he helped trigger that. Also that he is now a very familiar opponent making it easier for opposition analysts to figure out ways of combating him.

All these taken together may mean that we shouldn't expect him to stand out as often as he once did.

 

[Rinkadink]

So given the Itoje praise, would those be happy to see Itoje at 6 behind two lumpy locks?

As an aside Johnny Hill would be one of my starters for England (I'd have had Attwood a season or two ago). I was unconvinced by his initial inclusion but just grew massively, the Sale move will probably showcase this soon enough.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'd only be happy with Itoje at 6 if he was playing there at club level, tbh
I was very sceptical at Lawes at 6, and he wasn't great there initially, but since playing solely there for club he's come on leaps and bounds and, like Leincestershire Man says, he's rightfully our first choice 6 atm

Mentioned it in the game thread: Positions exist in rugby for a reason. Even if players can play in multiple roles, which is definitely not unheard of, you need experience and familiarity in a role to hit top form there, and playing one position every week for your club then being asked to play a completely different role at international level is a tough ask

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Fra were pretty ordinary v Ita but it has been very obvious how they've been building over the last few years. I have seldom seen such clarity from Jones, particularly not recently.

Irrespective of what happened vs Sco, Jones feels like a coach on a downward trajectory in this 2nd World Cup cycle. He's into his 60s, has been coaching us for a very long time and first coached internationally 21 years ago which is eons in the terms of this job. The 3 6N winning coaches at the weekend were all aged 46 - 52. Erasmus was 47 when he led the Boks to the last RWC. Age in itself is meaningless, but it increasingly looks like a younger man's game. What worked in 2017 let alone pre 2010 whether tactically or in man management looks prehistoric now.

We can talk about changes to back room staff, over loyalty to certain players, players out of position, leadership vacuums, lack of depth in certain positions etc, but the fundamental question is whether Jones is improving as a coach and does he improve individual players / the team as much as other coaches.

It's been a rollercoaster with Jones - some massive highs and some equally massive lows. My take is that whatever the best of Jones was we've already seen it. If that's the case, players will sense it.

I've never thought that Jones could be sacked pre RWC but if the rest of the 6N plays out as I expect we'll end up with 2 wins against obviously poor teams and 3 losses which isn't really good enough following last year and 'building for the RWC' will look ever more like blind faith. This could leave us / Jones in a very difficult position.

It feels like Jones mistakes over the years have been obvious (to us at least) with certain things happening again and again and him still not learning (like poor selections, poor tactics and constantly playing people out of form and or out of position).

I saw him as done a year or two ago simply because he looks like he's run out of ideas. The only thing left is his stupid gimmicks, like at the weekend, an out of form winger at 13, the 13 at 12, the 15 on the wing and the form 13 on the wing.

Just a mess and to top it all off trying to bring Nowel on at 80 minutes, just a stupid decision after needing an actual winger 20 minutes before that.

But it's the same mistakes from Jones over and over, I don't think he'll ever learn as he thinks he's right even when proven wrong.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Launchbury called up for Ludlam who is injured.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'd only be happy with Itoje at 6 if he was playing there at club level, tbh
I was very sceptical at Lawes at 6, and he wasn't great there initially, but since playing solely there for club he's come on leaps and bounds and, like Leincestershire Man says, he's rightfully our first choice 6 atm

Weird isn't it how Lawes was slagged off as not being a 6 and now accepted as his best position. Like PSDT for the Boks, albeit with a 7 on his back, until he really showed what a he could do in the last RWC there.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Launchbury called up for Ludlam who is injured.

Itoje, Launchbury,
Isiekwe, Curry,
Dombrandt

plz

 

[Reiser99]

Itoje, Launchbury,
Isiekwe, Curry,
Dombrandt

plz

Will Lawes be fit?