England Rugby 2019/20 Thread

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I mean who expected anything different?

 

[Yulia]

Dylan Hartley reveals Eddie Jones's 'brutal' three-word end to England days

The former England captain Dylan Hartley has detailed the phone call that ended his international career in a forthcoming book, adding that his generation acted as ‘crash dummies’ for the gruelling calendar

www.theguardian.com

Short and sweet from EJ.

.They treat us as warm bodies, human widgets. Players cut the ends off their boots so they can play with broken toes. They gobble painkillers like Smarties. After matches dressing rooms are like M*A*S*H clearing houses … People are being put back together with stitches and glue. Senior players have bits falling off them."

That's terrible.. I'm shocked (

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What would an Eng first choice pack look like now?

1. Marler if available
2. George, but LCD pushing hard
3. Sinckler. Although a very different type of player I'm really starting to like the look of Stuart too.
4. Itoje
5. With Kruis out of the picture it would be easy to fall back on Lawes or Launchbury neither of whom would let you down. But I think it's time to blood someone else with a view to the next RWC and beyond. Isiekwe for me.
6. Underhill's done nothing to warrant being dropped so the shirt's his, but Willis is snapping at his ankles.
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

With bench options including Simmonds, Earl, Hill, Willis, the Vunipolae, Genge, LCD, Stuart, Lawes and Launch I reckon we're in as good a place as we've been for a while up front.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Be interesting to see what happens with the backrow options - as you said: we've got soooooooo many
I'd completely forgotten about Simmonds - has he been overtaken by Earl?

How many backrowers are in a squad? 6? (We had 5 in the 6N but Lawes listed as a lock)

We've gotta pick from:
Curry, Curry, Hill, Underhill, Willis, Vunipola, Dombrandt, Mercer, Earl, Simmonds, Ludlam, and probably more I'm forgetting

 

[EdBirch]

Be interesting to see what happens with the backrow options - as you said: we've got soooooooo many
I'd completely forgotten about Simmonds - has he been overtaken by Earl?

How many backrowers are in a squad? 6? (We had 5 in the 6N but Lawes listed as a lock)

We've gotta pick from:
Curry, Curry, Hill, Underhill, Willis, Vunipola, Dombrandt, Mercer, Earl, Simmonds, Ludlam, and probably more I'm forgetting

Personally out of that i'd go, T Curry, Hill, Underhill, Willis, Vunipola and Simmonds

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I personally don't see how people can think Isiekwe should be one of our starting locks. Get him in the camp for the experience but he doesn't even seem to be in a Northampton 1st XV (I know it's hard to tell what's going on with 1st and 2nd teams ATM, but it definitely appears he's playing 2nd fiddle to Ratuniyarawa and Ribbans). I always forget quite how young he is but the lad only turned 22 in April. There's no need to rush him in when he clearly isn't ready for it IMO.

It's got to be Hill for me. At 26 he's still young and has been the form lock in the Prem since the restart IMO.

 

[EdBirch]

I personally don't see how people can think Isiekwe should be one of our starting locks. Get him in the camp for the experience but he doesn't even seem to be in a Northampton 1st XV (I know it's hard to tell what's going on with 1st and 2nd teams ATM, but it definitely appears he's playing 2nd fiddle to Ratuniyarawa and Ribbans). I always forget quite how young he is but the lad only turned 22 in April. There's no need to rush him in when he clearly isn't ready for it IMO.

It's got to be Hill for me. At 26 he's still young and has been the form lock in the Prem since the restart IMO.

Jonny Hill has been having an incredible season, definitely rate him

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's no need to rush him in when he clearly isn't ready for it IMO.

Behave, he was first choice for Saracens before Covid, and has started 3, benched 1, games since lockdown.
If you'd have said that most of his recent rugby has been at 6 rather than lock (where he was a starter for Saracens), then that's a fair argument - but you don't have to poo on the guy just to big up your man.

EJ likes him, too - which is a bigger indication of who will be selected, over league form.

Realistically it'll almost definitely be a Lawes/Itoje second row with Hill or Isiekwe on the bench, EJ knows what(/who) he likes and rarely deviates.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Behave, he was first choice for Saracens before Covid, and has started 3, benched 1, games since lockdown.
If you'd have said that most of his recent rugby has been at 6 rather than lock (where he was a starter for Saracens), then that's a fair argument - but you don't have to poo on the guy just to big up your man.

EJ likes him, too - which is a bigger indication of who will be selected, over league form.

Realistically it'll almost definitely be a Lawes/Itoje second row with Hill or Isiekwe on the bench, EJ knows what(/who) he likes and rarely deviates.

I mean... true, but looking at the teams he's been starting in it definitely looks to me to be a clear 2nd XV ie. lacking Northampton's clear 1st XV players like Biggar, Lawes, Harrison, Hutchinson, Proctor, Franks etc. while instead being alongside the likes of Grayson, Gibson, Adendorff, Francis, Dingwall and Painter in those positions; all clearly 2nd choice players. Ratuniyarawa-Ribbans has consistently been the lock pairing in what I would is clearly the 1st XV side. I admit that with the current schedule and teams it's a bit more up to interpretation but I feel confident in saying he's been playing in the 2nd team. Maybe a Northampton supporter could weigh in a bit more?

I also stand by saying he isn't ready to be an international lock. He was always a back rower at Saracens; clearly there's something about him that isn't suited to the lock role. The Saints website lists him as only being 111kg, maybe he just doesn't have the bulk for it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The Saints website lists him as only being 111kg, maybe he just doesn't have the bulk for it?

Which means neither does Hill, who is listed at 112?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Which means neither does Hill, who is listed at 112?

And yet he's trusted at lock. I'm not saying that I don't think he's heavy enough - I just speculated that that may be a reason that he doesn't seem to be rated too highly by teams in that position. Maybe its just a case of lock being a much more technical position than flanker so he may not be seen as mature/experienced enough for the role. Again, speculation. The point is though that as I see it, Saracens didn't back him as a lock but did rate him enough as a player to put him into a 1st XV regardless, in which case he shouldn't start as a lock for England but could maybe be considered at 6; and Northampton just don't seem to rate him enough to put him into a 1st XV, in which case he shouldn't start at as a lock for England.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Or maybe it was a case of Itoje and Skelton being first choice second row and Isiekwe being rated enough to be played out of position at 6


I don't think it's going to be an either/or, I'd be surprised if they weren't both in the EPS.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Or maybe it was a case of Itoje and Skelton being first choice second row and Isiekwe being rated enough to be played out of position at 6


I don't think it's going to be an either/or, I'd be surprised if they weren't both in the EPS.

Yeah that's fair. I'd much rather see both in a 23 than bring in Lawes who clearly isn't going to be around for the remainder on the WC cycle. Launchbury deserves to be in the conversation but his clock is ticking and he clearly isn't the player he used to be. Itoje, Hill and Isiekwe could be a very good trio of locks for a while to come.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Launchbury deserves to be in the conversation but his clock is ticking

I was gonna say this then googled him and was shocked to see he's only 29!
EJ has never really seemed like a fan, tbh - I wouldn't be surprised to see him out of the EPS

 

[EdBirch]

Yeah that's fair. I'd much rather see both in a 23 than bring in Lawes who clearly isn't going to be around for the remainder on the WC cycle. Launchbury deserves to be in the conversation but his clock is ticking and he clearly isn't the player he used to be. Itoje, Hill and Isiekwe could be a very good trio of locks for a while to come.

With Ewels in to round out the 4?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

With Ewels in to round out the 4?

Ewels is a weird one to me. EJ clearly rates him very highly but I've never been impressed and I've never really heard anyone sing his praises either. Personally I rate Stooke higher of the 2 at Bath but maybe I'm just not seeing something.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I still rate Isiekwe, he put in some monster shifts with sarries.
Boyd not rating him as a starter given Saints post lockdown record to me potentially says more about Boyd.

Is it really any wonder that Boyd (Classic NZ coach) favours the more attacking minded Ratuniyarawa and the well IMO mobile smaller enforcer type Ribbans.
Look at saints pack on the whole it's very lightweight.
Back row are all on the smaller side.

Almost reminds me of Tigers when Mauger came in and he brought in McCaffrey and O'Connor

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Which means neither does Hill, who is listed at 112?

Wiki and ESPN both have Isiekwe at around 120 kg which sounds more feasible. Whatever concerns there may be, bulk and power aren't among them.

Still only 22 and has started 47 out of his 60 Sarries appearances. They clearly rate him and have a pretty good track record in judging players.

And he was MoM in one of his Saints games v LI. I saw that and he was outstanding.

 

[Which Tyler]

Do we know how many are going to be in the squad? We're only really going to get mini-breaks this side of April now, so might get a larger squad. This also means that I don't expect Sarries players to be left out.

LHP: Marler, Mako, Genge. If Marler quits again, then there's no real indication of whose next. My guess would be Obano, but that's probably my club bias coming through.

HK: George, LCD and probably Dunn. I'd expect to see Barbeary get an apprentice slot here.

THP: Sinckler, Stuart and ... Erm... No real standouts, but I expect us to have a 3rd from somewhere.

LK: Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes & 1 of Isiekwe, Hill, Ewels or Moon

Back Row: gods alone knows, any 5-6 from Curry, Curry, Willis, Underhill, Earl, Ludlam, Hill, Wilson, Simmonds, Vunipola, Mercer, Dombrandt


Scrum Half: Young's and Spencer. If Eddie overcomes his dislike of SHs, then Robson, Mitchell and Vellacot fight out for 3rd. Maunder not living up to hype yet.

Fly Half: Ford, Farrell and probably Smith, though Umaga may force his way in, or he may get an apprentice spot (as may Vunipola). I'd like Simmonds, but I don't think Eddie does.

Centre: Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph and probably Devoto. Marchant may get in as well, expect to see Redpath as an apprentice.

Wings: May, Watson, Daly, Nowell & Thorley. McConnochie deserves a spot, but probably misses out. Lots of youngsters to choose, I'd expect one in the full squad and one apprentice. If this squad is to go through the 6N21, then Cokanasiga may make it despite not playing in over a year.

Full Back: We don't have any FBs (other than Brown and Pennel), but then, even if we did Eddie wouldn't select one. A bit like reserve SHs, he just prefers to do without.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

THP: Sinckler, Stuart and ... Erm... No real standouts, but I expect us to have a 3rd from somewhere.

I've been very impressed by Joe Heyes for Tigers. Definitely think he's worth having a look at in the squad. If not then it'll probably be Williams.