England Post-WC discussion

[McTallshort]

Bit of an over-reaction, surely?

I get that Tigers fans will be annoyed at the Tom Youngs omission, but Jones has already said he wants hookers who can hook, and he obviously thinks Youngs is too old to learn, unlike LCD. I wonder if he will be called up if LCD doesn´t recover in time. You should be happy about the scrum half selection, though - I would have had two of the scrum halves with better basics (Simpson, Cook) in there with Youngs, but with only Care alongside him in the squad he´s got a very good chance of starting, since Care is a similar scrum half to Youngs, but without Youngs main attribute (can we get rid of that point of difference crap?), namely that he is very good at running a game. His kicking is also worse than Youngs, which clinches it in my opinion (and is why I think we will miss Simpson and Cook not being there - did you see Cook´s 60 metre box kick against Toulon?).

Anyway, apart from the scrum half selection, I am very happy with the squad. Jones has got rid of most of the ´honest grafters´ that Lancaster loved to pick, and hopefully we will only see one (Haskell or Robshaw at 6, although I really hope it is Itoje) in the back row, which will have a much better balance as a result. Barritt going is a very good sign - it shows that Jones picks the team and Gustard then teaches them how to defend, rather than having the defence coach picking the team a la Lancaster-Farrell, and even Johnson-Ford. Burrell going is also a good sign, as it shows (apart from Tuilagi, who I can see playing on the wing) that Jones doesn´t want one-dimensional players in the midfield. Back three I´m not crazy about, but hopefully May and Wade will come back into it in the summer.

Ashton, Hartley, Goode? No Cipriani, Kvesic in as injury cover. No its not an over reaction.

 

[Maverick1987]

Ashton, Hartley, Goode? No Cipriani, Kvesic in as injury cover. No its not an over reaction.

Yeh it's an over reaction ....

How can it not be when you liken Jones to Lancaster even though his England haven't played a game ?

 

[Crapspray]

Ashton, Hartley, Goode? No Cipriani, Kvesic in as injury cover. No its not an over reaction.

Ashton: We've lost the last three Six Nations by failing to convert opportunities against Italy, Scotland, and Scotland respectively. For all his other flaws, Ashton is very good at putting points on weaker sides. Tactically justifiable.

Hartley: While I don't like the exclusion of Youngs, Hartley is the most experienced and bland option available. He does the basics fairly well and consistently. Jones has also repeatedly stated he wants his set-piece strong and his hookers striking (fnarr fnarr). Dubious, but understandable.

Goode: I'll put this one down to limited changes and a lack of challengers. Jones has been quoted as doubting his pace and wanting Watson at 15. He may have thought it a lower priority to replace Goode than, say, Barritt since he's unlikely to play anyway.

Cipriani: To paraphrase what Brian Moore wrote: if he is to play ahead of youngsters for the next four years, he needs to be unquestionably capable of holding off Ford and Farrell. Otherwise he's holding back the development of players who may surpass him. Also, we're only taking four half-backs so Jones (his words) can pick more players in more competitive positions, ergo six props.

Kvesic: Again, lack of changes means he probably can't drop Haskell, Morgan, and Wood at the same time, so Kvesic sneaks in under a technicality.

 

[Maverick1987]

Ashton: We've lost the last three Six Nations by failing to convert opportunities against Italy, Scotland, and Scotland respectively. For all his other flaws, Ashton is very good at putting points on weaker sides. Tactically justifiable.

Hartley: While I don't like the exclusion of Youngs, Hartley is the most experienced and bland option available. He does the basics fairly well and consistently. Jones has also repeatedly stated he wants his set-piece strong and his hookers striking (fnarr fnarr). Dubious, but understandable.

Goode: I'll put this one down to limited changes and a lack of challengers. Jones has been quoted as doubting his pace and wanting Watson at 15. He may have thought it a lower priority to replace Goode than, say, Barritt since he's unlikely to play anyway.

Cipriani: To paraphrase what Brian Moore wrote: if he is to play ahead of youngsters for the next four years, he needs to be unquestionably capable of holding off Ford and Farrell. Otherwise he's holding back the development of players who may surpass him. Also, we're only taking four half-backs so Jones (his words) can pick more players in more competitive positions, ergo six props.

Kvesic: Again, lack of changes means he probably can't drop Haskell, Morgan, and Wood at the same time, so Kvesic sneaks in under a technicality.

Amen

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Jones, when talking about 12, mentioned the ability to get over the line AND pass the ball. He also singled out Slade for that so it seems Jones agrees with many here that Slade could be the 12 we want, despite not playing 12 at Exeter.

 

[Aristodemus]

I'm happy with that squad to be fair, it isn't the squad I would have picked but just to see Barritt, Wood, Parling and Tom Youngs gone is something very pleasing for me. I'm disappointed for Kvesic but on the other hand happy to see Yarde back in.

Looking forward to see what his first 23 is now!

 

[LUKE12]

So who's higher in the pecking order Hill or Devoto?

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm happy with that squad to be fair, it isn't the squad I would have picked but just to see Barritt, Wood, Parling and Tom Youngs gone is something very pleasing for me. I'm disappointed for Kvesic but on the other hand happy to see Yarde back in.

Looking forward to see what his first 23 is now!

Kvesic is in there

 

[Peat]

Looking at the declared injury replacements is it something to do with the fact May won't play as he won't be fit for the 6 nations? So EJ has to drop him from EPS entirely or not get a replacement. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a stupid rule like that so he has 11 changes including for injuries but if someone could potentially come back he can declare who they swap with.

Nope, he gets a replacement for all injured players named, its 11 changes plus injuries - and he doesn't have to dump the replacement player as and when the injured one gets back to fitness, he gets both for the rest of the tournament.

I am quite mystified he used a change on Yarde for May. It might actually be my biggest gripe.

Anyway, now that I've recovered from my rage over Ashton (eased by the fact he wasn't a change in at least) I'm... probably teetering back to optimistic. The biggest problems of the last couple of years have been back-row and centre; he's basically got every promising player in those positions into the squad. Good. We've got a number of talented young players in to groom but not so many we have to rely on them instantly. Good.

We've got one big problem in that we've got only two scrumhalves and two fly-halves and that could go wrong horribly. It's not likely, but two badly timed injuries means dropping someone in. I'd rather have 3 of each in. Cipriani and Simpson had earned gos anyway.

Other than that... Roko is unlucky, Ashton shoulda been dumped but if he was there already meh, don't understand the Hartley love but he can at least do a job. Uhm. I'd have preferred Croft for Hask, but I guess if you're running out of changes and don't see either as starting (mistake imo, but there we go)... yeah.

Think LCD is lucky to be the anointed one at hooker in the face of Taylor and Haywood.

It's all ******** compared to team and performance.

 

[Aristodemus]

Kvesic is in there

Only as a replacement. Although I guess it is an opportunity for him to show himself to Jones (if I put my optimist hat on).

 

[ncurd]

So who's higher in the pecking order Hill or Devoto?

Has to be Hill I've never seen anything really promising from Devoto in a Bath shirt.

 

[Irish boy]

Eastmond hasn't even been mentioned and he starts over Devoto serious waste of talent

 

[Which Tyler]

Has to be Hill I've never seen anything really promising from Devoto in a Bath shirt.

Have you tried? Looks every inch the international at 12; and perfectly capable at 13 to me.
Of course, he looks lost at 10 and too slow with no positional sense at FB.

I would have thought it would be between Hill, Devoto and Farrell to fight over the 12 shirt in training; and if Farrell wins that, then between Hill and Devoto to fight over the 22 shirt.
Hill obviously holds the upper hand before the squad gets together, purely because he's getting game-time. Mind you, if starting with Ford and Joseph, then that's got to boost Devoto's chances along with it...

 

[Raggs]

Devoto has had pressure few chances at 12 recently for Bath, and not looked out of place when he's had them, Hill has had more gametime though. I suspect Jones will call it on what he sees.

Kvesic may be in as an injury replacement, but that could just be Eddie being smart with his picks, using permanent swaps elsewhere.

 

[Peat]

Cipriani: To paraphrase what Brian Moore wrote: if he is to play ahead of youngsters for the next four years, he needs to be unquestionably capable of holding off Ford and Farrell. Otherwise he's holding back the development of players who may surpass him. Also, we're only taking four half-backs so Jones (his words) can pick more players in more competitive positions, ergo six props.

Sorry, but this is horlicks.

Not only is he unquestionably capable of doing it, the argument doesn't make sense as any player can be overtaken by others. One might as well ask why back Ford now when in four years time Cipriani might be a better player in better form.

The only thing those two gentlemen have on him is goal kicking. That's it. If he's bold enough to stick Fazlet at 12, there is no earthly reason not to start Cips.

 

[LUKE12]

It is likely Farrel will start at 12 for the start of the 6 nations but when Tuilagi returns to full fitness he could start at 12 in place of Farrel meaning neither hill or Devoto will get game time; it is also likely that neither of them will be on the bench because either Daly/joseph (depending on who starts at 13) will claim that last spot on the bench.

 

[tsof]

Have you tried? Looks every inch the international at 12; and perfectly capable at 13 to me.
Of course, he looks lost at 10 and too slow with no positional sense at FB.

Agreed. When given a run out at twelve, he's looked strong. Could actually see him get the nod over Hill by virtue of his kicking game and play-making ability to be a useful second receiver. Dare I say it, but he could really do with leaving us for fulfil his potential.

 

[Which Tyler]

Chances are that Hill and Devoto will be fighting each other for the 22 shirt against Italy and Scotland; and that's about it.
If one of them is really tearing up trees in training, they may get a start with Farrell benching, but they'd probably need to be going really well to get that.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Jones, when talking about 12, mentioned the ability to get over the line AND pass the ball. He also singled out Slade for that so it seems Jones agrees with many here that Slade could be the 12 we want, despite not playing 12 at Exeter.

That has to be long term though doesn't it. Well, obviously it does given his broken leg, but even fully fit he would have to play the position for Exeter week in week out for a reasonably long time to be ready to play internationally. Combined with injury recovery, I can't see him being ready before 6N 2017 - in the mean time, Jones needs an inside centre for the next 12 months, I doubt Slade is his highest priority right now. Burrell's omission is an odd one given the lack of options. I'm no big fan of his by any stretch, but surely he beats Devoto, generic 12/13 backup at an underperforming side?

 

[LUKE12]

Judging by the squad named what does everyone think is the most likely team to play Scotland