[England] Post-6N/Pre-RWC Player Watch

[Peat]

Should we be looking at locking down Tom Francis before Wales poach him?
Do we have any Saxons fixtures in the summer?

In terms of him being an important England resource of the future? No.

In terms of screwing over Wales? Well... yeah, I guess, but I don't like doing that. Both some sense of fairness and enlightened self-interest - a strong England needs a strong 6N for a testing ground.

And, to be honest, I'm pretty sure Francis can work that one out for himself and I doubt he'd accept a call-up at this stage.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's effective in the scrum mainly because he's seriously overweight ... He'll need to lose it to be fit for international rugby and I don't think he'll be able to maintain his scrummaging ability once he's dn that.

 

[91jmay]

Francis isn't good enough for England we have 3 tight head props I would easily pick ahead of him with Henry Thomas also probably better. I would go for Wales if I were him.

 

[yaboyjj]

In terms of him being an important England resource of the future? No.

In terms of screwing over Wales? Well... yeah, I guess, but I don't like doing that. Both some sense of fairness and enlightened self-interest - a strong England needs a strong 6N for a testing ground.

And, to be honest, I'm pretty sure Francis can work that one out for himself and I doubt he'd accept a call-up at this stage.

I'm not sure I agree, Francis just took apart Corbs and Waller- he's only 22 years old and is sure to improve. Good TH props are worth their weight in Gold, neither Sinkler, Thomas or Brookes are particularly destructive scrummagers (all around the same age or older)- handing Wales a prospect like him, may come back to bite England in the a** a few years down the line. In the 6 nations we were scraping the barrel a bit, with Wilson, Brookes and Thomas all injured at some stage with Cole playing a huge amount after a long lay-off. Could England play him on the bench for the baa-baas game?

 

[j'nuh]

I agree with yaboyjj. In the short-term, we are okay for the next few years with Wilson/Cole/Brookes. But Wilson is 30 and will need replacing some time in the next WC cycle, and Cole is 27 and will probably manage until 2019 but may need replacing soon after (although with his injury record, I wouldn't be surprised if it was before then). In terms of successors, we have Sinckler, Thomas and Brookes and no outstanding scrummager.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

I'm not sure I agree, Francis just took apart Corbs and Waller- he's only 22 years old and is sure to improve. Good TH props are worth their weight in Gold, neither Sinkler, Thomas or Brookes are particularly destructive scrummagers (all around the same age or older)- handing Wales a prospect like him, may come back to bite England in the a** a few years down the line. In the 6 nations we were scraping the barrel a bit, with Wilson, Brookes and Thomas all injured at some stage with Cole playing a huge amount after a long lay-off. Could England play him on the bench for the baa-baas game?

With the number of tighthead props available to England atm, I'd far rather we developed the available options/waited for the current ones to come good (e.g. Sinkler at Quins with the help of Adam Jones, Brookes to Northampton with (presumably) better quality coaching) than attempt to monopolize the lot. Props get better with age, especially in the scrum, and by the time Wilson and Cole are past it I expect Brookes, Thomas, Sinkler to be starting to reach levels as good if not better.
Wouldn't it be selfish to cap Francis for the Saxons with the sole aim of preventing him from having an international career outside of England, just because it could be detrimental to England?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

With the number of tighthead props available to England atm, I'd far rather we developed the available options/waited for the current ones to come good (e.g. Sinkler at Quins with the help of Adam Jones, Brookes to Northampton with (presumably) better quality coaching) than attempt to monopolize the lot. Props get better with age, especially in the scrum, and by the time Wilson and Cole are past it I expect Brookes, Thomas, Sinkler to be starting to reach levels as good if not better.
Wouldn't it be selfish to cap Francis for the Saxons with the sole aim of preventing him from having an international career outside of England, just because it could be detrimental to England?

Going to be hard, Gatland has already been making moves to get him into Wales. His loyalty may already have been bought.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You never know - a phonecall from Lancaster saying he's not far off could sway him.
He's born and raised in England, would've grown up dreaming of wearing the rose.
Playing for Wales is only a consolation prize for him.

 

[yaboyjj]

You never know - a phonecall from Lancaster saying he's not far off could sway him.
He's born and raised in England, would've grown up dreaming of wearing the rose.
Playing for Wales is only a consolation prize for him.

This, iirc he's only qualified for Wales through a grandmother- the only draw of Wales is the fact that he would get selected sooner (if not for the world cup) and would be earning more, sooner. Hence he was being targeted by the Blues>>>central contract.
Anyone know if he's signed to Exeter next season (Baxter must be keen to keep him)? - I'm sure he was in talks with the Blues :/

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd be quite happy to take him on just to deny him to Wales. Let's just say all the stuff before and during the first game of the last 6N have made me want to screw over Gatland and Co whenever we can.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

I'd be quite happy to take him on just to deny him to Wales. Let's just say all the stuff before and during the first game of the last 6N have made me want to screw over Gatland and Co whenever we can.

You big ol' grudge-holding ******* :')
Where has all the Francis hype come from, btw? I know he was called up by Wales (I think) in the Six Nations, but their tight head options were worse than abominable, so that's no real indicator of form. Is it just today's Saints game that's put him into people's minds? Help out a poor person with no consistent access to BT sport...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Pretty much. Wales wanting to poach him has definitely brought him more press than he'd be getting otherwise.

He started this season slow but is growing more and more into senior rugby as time goes on.
As alluded to above: he's built much more like a prop of old than your modern ones, but he's scrummaging better than any other his age at the moment.
Remains to be seen whether losing some of his bulk would harm his scrummaging, but I'd want him as an option for England, rather letting a very promising scrummager go to our closest/biggest rivals.


To be fair, we don't know whether he actually wants to play for Wales anyway - i know he trained with them inthe 6N, but if you got a phonecall to go train with an international set up you'd probably take it regardless.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Pretty much. Wales wanting to poach him has definitely brought him more press than he'd be getting otherwise.

He started this season slow but is growing more and more into senior rugby as time goes on.
As alluded to above: he's built much more like a prop of old than your modern ones, but he's scrummaging better than any other his age at the moment.
Remains to be seen whether losing some of his bulk would harm his scrummaging, but I'd want him as an option for England, rather letting a very promising scrummager go to our closest/biggest rivals.


To be fair, we don't know whether he actually wants to play for Wales anyway - i know he trained with them inthe 6N, but if you got a phonecall to go train with an international set up you'd probably take it regardless.

Ah right, thanks for that. I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have young players developing atm than Exeter. I wonder if that would be a factor for Francis; they're clearly better at developing and consistently playing young talent than somewhere like Cardiff.

 

[yaboyjj]

Ah right, thanks for that. I can't think of anywhere I'd rather have young players developing atm than Exeter. I wonder if that would be a factor for Francis; they're clearly better at developing and consistently playing young talent than somewhere like Cardiff.

I'd have thought so- one of the main reasons I don't want him to not play for Wales, is that sooner or later he'd move from Exeter to a region for a central contract and a new good TH would not come cheap (as Glouc found out).

 

[Peat]

You never know - a phonecall from Lancaster saying he's not far off could sway him.
He's born and raised in England, would've grown up dreaming of wearing the rose.
Playing for Wales is only a consolation prize for him.

Would that actually be true though? We have 4 established to semi-established international props, 2 highly touted prospects and a few maybes without considering him. Given Lancaster's open attempts to breed a club atmosphere, it's going to be pretty difficult for new talent to break in ahead of that queue. He's yet to do two seasons of top level rugby - he's yet to lose the weight he will probably need to in order to be a international fixture. Can we be sure he's really good enough to break in? Not to mention - Lancaster loves mobility. I'd say it's pretty clear he wants an England team that can keep up with NZ's pace all game long. Does Francis actually fit into that? This is the guy who put big faith into Henry Thomas back when he was a dodgy scrummager because he has that athleticism - does Francis?

Would we be talking about more than a Saxons call-up once he'd lost the weight if it wasn't for his imminent poaching by Wales? I'm going to guess no here. Personally, I think Francis would have to either be very patriotic or very stupid to listen to Lancaster right now, as I don't think he's close to fulfilling Lancaster's criteria.

It's a shame, as there's clearly something there and it would be nice to explore that option when I don't think we're going to get the chance. Long term, I don't think he's going to be missed if he goes, but it would be annoying if he does actually turn out to be the best of his generation.

I agree with yaboyjj. In the short-term, we are okay for the next few years with Wilson/Cole/Brookes. But Wilson is 30 and will need replacing some time in the next WC cycle, and Cole is 27 and will probably manage until 2019 but may need replacing soon after (although with his injury record, I wouldn't be surprised if it was before then). In terms of successors, we have Sinckler, Thomas and Brookes and no outstanding scrummager.

He will? Woodcock, Mealamu, Castro, Best, Ross, Debaty, James, Aguero, Murray and Jenkins will all be 33 or older come the next world cup. Last time around, that list contained Servat, Hore, Jacobsen, Thompson, Smit, and half the Argentine and Italian squads (well, ok, 3 each).

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Dave Wilson was still playing by 2019 and if he isn't, it'll probably be because he's been forced out by better.

And what Dan Cole injury record? The guy's only missed two international windows in five years.

 

[Tmartin995]

This, iirc he's only qualified for Wales through a grandmother- the only draw of Wales is the fact that he would get selected sooner (if not for the world cup) and would be earning more, sooner. Hence he was being targeted by the Blues>>>central contract.
Anyone know if he's signed to Exeter next season (Baxter must be keen to keep him)? - I'm sure he was in talks with the Blues :/

He was signed to a two year deal at the start of the season:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26865324

To be fair, we don't know whether he actually wants to play for Wales anyway - i know he trained with them inthe 6N, but if you got a phonecall to go train with an international set up you'd probably take it regardless.

There's this article today where he says he's "100% committed" to playing in the World Cup for Wales:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-tighthead-prop-tomas-francis-9030817

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

That's that settled then, I think about a 3rd of the Welsh team were born in England now...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yup, if he's in the press saying he's 110% committed to Wales then **** him.


Do love Baxter saying "....right, yeah. But he's English."

 

[Raggs]

Wilson may be able to make 2019, but I don't think we'll need him. Cole certainly should. Then we have Brookes, who is a good scrummager, especially considering his age. Thomas, who does it all round the park, and since arriving at Bath has looked rather handy in the scrum too. Sinkler, Jake Cooper-Woolley and Scott Wilson are all in the frame too, and all young. Throw in Keiran Longbottom throwing his lot in with England (looked fairly handy till injury), and then there's those Leeds young props who keep going to the England practice sessions, and I think we're alright.

 

[yaboyjj]

Still stinks a bit though- especially losing him to the vile Welshists (ie Gatland). First they came for Warburton, then they came for JD2....