England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say our depth at hooker is fine, we are looking at our 4th choice by now and I don't think even NZ can say their 4th choice would be that great.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd say our depth at hooker is fine, we are looking at our 4th choice by now and I don't think even NZ can say their 4th choice would be that great.

Aumua's their 4th choice. They can say that their 4th choice is phenomenal.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Aumua's their 4th choice. They can say that their 4th choice is phenomenal.

More down to inexperience than ability though? Actually realised it would be our 5th choice hooker and I think saying we lack depth because our 5th choice isn't a world beater seems a bit bizarre.

 

[Hound]

For me in 2019 i could see Isiekwe overtaking Launchbury.

Would also put Armand over Curry in the AI's.

I think Armand would make a solid specialist 20. Big, versatile and plays 7.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think Armand would make a solid specialist 20. Big, versatile and plays 7.

I don't rate him as an 8 and with Binny fitness, 8 is where the 20 is likely to come on. He can do a job there but he doesn't seem comfortable there. Not explosive enough and too tall.

 

[BPM]

More down to inexperience than ability though? Actually realised it would be our 5th choice hooker and I think saying we lack depth because our 5th choice isn't a world beater seems a bit bizarre.

I agree. It's unfortunate, but it's circumstantial rather than a long-term problem.

When you look around the Premiership, a good proportion of the first and second choice hookers are English (or EQ). In fact, Gloucester and Newcastle are the only I can think of where an English hooker doesn't really feature and a lot clubs have two or three.

Obviously that doesn't mean that a large proportion of those are test quality, but some of the younger ones like Walker and Singleton will probably become test players further down the track.

 

[will311293]

Hughes citing is a little harsh.. swinging arm on M.Smith but was fairly minimal and actually looked like he tried to pull out but when an arm that size with his weight hits a small bloke like Smith, always going to look bad. Dropping Launchbury would be fairly harsh hes been fantastic again this year and don't think Isekwie is quite there yet although he will challenge soon. To be honest the deployment of Lawes in the back row for saints and Itoje for Sarries gives a huge amount of versatility.

Also reckon Robson should be given a shout at 9...

will be interesting to see how players fit in as without Teo, Vunipola, LCD, Sinckler etc. there are gaps in the squad. Depending on the bans it will be interesting to see who gets in. No doubt Jones will have one or two left field decisions in his squad as he loves to mix it up

 

[TRF_Olyy]

People always forget how good Launchbury is when he's been away for a while.
Then he comes back and everyone's like "Actually, fair play, he is one of the best in the world."
Remember the outrage when he was left out of the Lions? To say Isekwie should be there over him is pretty insulting. Launch has got two (maybe even 3, if he goes all Simon Shaw on us) more world cups in him, it's not like he's an old man on a downward slope.

 

[will311293]

Well said Olyy... scary to think that he's only 26 and is younger than Lawes and Kruis. Shaw comparisons are fair, as he's always fit and seems to be a slow burner, never stopping. As has been mentioned many times that England have an embarrassment of Riches at lock at the moment with 3 lions and one very unlucky not to be.

 

[Which Tyler]

I disagree.
I don't think anyone forgets how good Launch is.

He's just playing in an era where we have frankly insane competition in his position. Itoje is better, whilst Itoje and launch don't look like being a complementary pairing; Lawes is more versatile, and in better form this season.

As for Isiekwe ahead of Launch... I don't recall seeing that - though that could easily be me dismissing the suggestion as silly... for now

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

When all are firing I think Kruis is our premier lock.

As for Launch, it's tough. But the game is encouraging more athletic locks - Launch is good, but Itoje and Lawes are better and probably hit harder as well. There's also an increased emphasis on the line out - he's good, but not world class; unfortunately for him Kruis, Itoje and Lawes all are. That's not to denigrate Launch at all, he's an exceptional player who'd never let England down, but there are better options at the moment.

Isiekwe's not one of them, but by 2019 he might be. He's an enormous bloke, visibly taller than both Kruis and Itoje, and very athletic. Raw certainly, but he's starting to make waves in the Sarries first XV at just 19. His potential is frightening and he's at the best club in the land for schooling top class forwards. He could be one of the bolters Eddie is looking for.

 

[ratsapprentice]

When all are firing I think Kruis is our premier lock.

Funny... I've always felt exactly the opposite.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Funny... I've always felt exactly the opposite.

He's the least showy, but he's a kind of glue, always seeming to be in the middle of the unglamourous stuff. One of those blokes maybe appreciated more by the team mates than crowd. Excellent in the line out too.

He was rusty after injury for the Lions and didn't get to do himself justice, but I wasn't at all surprised that Gatland took the gamble on him for the first test.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Meh, I think he's one of those players who's decent at everything, without being outstanding at any one thing (except possibly the lineout).

I think, in a perverse way, his ordinarity is deceptive. People like to fetishise players who "do the "unseen" work", to the point where a player who only does this is often looked at favourably over players who do more than just this.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Meh, I think he's one of those players who's decent at everything, without being outstanding at any one thing (except possibly the lineout).

I think, in a perverse way, his ordinarity is deceptive. People like to fetishise players who "do the "unseen" work", to the point where a player who only does this is often looked at favourably over players who do more than just this.

I dunno, I'd say the Krutoje pairing back in 2016 was by far the strongest lock pairing England had fielded and they dominated their opposition locks in every aspect of the game. Having said that Launchbury getting 3 MotM awards in 2017 6N can't be ignored either... Suffice to say I think we can take injuries there without any loss of ability.

 

[Reiser99]

Hartley citing dismissed so he's free to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41751064

So who do you start now...george or hartley? I know who I'd pick on form, but how much does Jones rate Hartley's captaincy?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Meh, I think he's one of those players who's decent at everything, without being outstanding at any one thing (except possibly the lineout).

I think, in a perverse way, his ordinarity is deceptive. People like to fetishise players who "do the "unseen" work", to the point where a player who only does this is often looked at favourably over players who do more than just this.

Are Lawes or Launchbury outstanding in any aspect? I agree with you that I don't think Kruis is the best lock, I rate Lawes and Itoje higher but isn't being good at everything kind of the role of locks?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hartley citing dismissed so he's free to play.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/41751064

So who do you start now...george or hartley? I know who I'd pick on form, but how much does Jones rate Hartley's captaincy?

Think everyone here would say George, easily, but Hartley is still captain so he will.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think, in a perverse way, his ordinarity is deceptive. People like to fetishise players who "do the "unseen" work", to the point where a player who only does this is often looked at favourably over players who do more than just this.

You can have Tom Croft tearing down the wing. I'll stick with Richard Hill at the bottom of a ruck.

but isn't being good at everything kind of the role of locks?

The ones I want in our team are good at everything and exceptional at some aspects. I don't think Launch ticks the exceptional box, I think Lawes does for his line-out and some of his tackling. He's also hugely improved his carrying (which he needed to) - is Launch a better player than he was 3 years ago?

So who do you start now...george or hartley? I know who I'd pick on form, but how much does Jones rate Hartley's captaincy?

He obviously rates it hugely. But even if Eddie wants Hartley to skipper through to Japan, I think it's time to see how the side fares without him from both hooking and captaincy perspectives. That's just sensible contingency planning - injuries and suspensions happen.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't like Tom Croft, because he's exactly the opposite of what I'm describing!

I'm not saying Kruis is ****, or that he isn't there or thereabouts the first team. Just that he's not quite the outstanding player he's made out to be by many.
Hill was more than just well rounded though, he was very, very good at pretty much everything... not just decent/good.