England EPS 2017/18 edition.

[Lé Ddanno]

So, who's going to start 10 come Nov?

My autumn 15 without injury.

Genge / Marler
George / LCD
Cole / Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Shields / Underhill
Curry
Billy

it's going to be Youngs, but hoping for someone else
Cipriani
May
Farrell
Joseph / Tuilagi
Watson
Daly

I would bin Youngs for being useless and Chavlet on general principle. The sooner we appoint another captain - literally anyone else at this point - the better.
I think Williams can do a better job as our starting TH over Cole and Sinkler is a better bench option; makes a much greater impression when he knows he has 20 mins to empty the tank.
If Manu is fit (ha!) And in form (!!) I'd play him at 12 because half of the restof the team has already played out of position anyway, and Joseph is too valuable defensively at 13
I think Itoje could do with some motivation to stop being a penalty machine, so Lawes ahead of him.

*All of the above assumes decent form as they're largely going to be returning from injury

 

[NickBD]

Not sure I'd drop Mako from 23. He's still top class from the bench. Marler to start.

I'd be interested to know if Jones will bring back Hartley. If he can come back from his concussions. Not sure any of LCD or George nailed down a spot and we know EJ loves Hartley. Also Farrell didn't inspire confidence as captain. Not as a player but it's clear Eng miss Hartley as captain.

From the tour I think Curry and May are the stand outs.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Reckon the main team will be
1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Te'o/Manu
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Daly

16. George
17. Mako
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Sheilds
21. Care
22. Cips
23. Nowell

 

[Nudger]

Reckon the main team will be
1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Te'o/Manu
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Daly

16. George
17. Mako
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Sheilds
21. Care
22. Cips
23. Nowell

Not far off

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Reckon the main team will be
1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Te'o/Manu
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Daly

16. George
17. Mako
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Sheilds
21. Care
22. Cips
23. Nowell

I would say this, but with a few changes:

10. Cips
12. Farrell
22. Manu/Te'o
23. Brown (I would prefer Nowell but don't think Brown will be dropped from the 23 unless he plays horribly in the AIs)

I'm not sure about Robshaw at 6, especially with no front row carrying threat. Would prefer Shields at 6 and Underhill/Simmonds on the bench. In wet conditions I'm fine keeping Robshaw as a workhorse but on a firm track we need more dynamism.

I love the potential impact of the bench - imagine bringing on Mako, Sinckler, Simmonds, Care, Manu and Nowell with 20 mins left...

 

[RedruthRFC]

Is it official that England have reverted to having a bench / substitutes? I notice that the graphics that the RFU release with the team on them no longer mention "finishers".

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Is it official that England have reverted to having a bench / substitutes? I notice that the graphics that the RFU release with the team on them no longer mention "finishers".

Weirdly last week the graphic reverted to "finishers" on the website

 

[RedruthRFC]

Weirdly last week the graphic reverted to "finishers" on the website

I was going to say that maybe someone pointed out that it was pretty daft when on a losing streak, but to be fair, during the losing streak, they were still finishing the job that the starting XV had begun! Maybe I'm being petty, but this is another example of the lack of consistency in thought and deed from Jones that winds me up.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

To be fair for large chunks of Jones' time they have not been finishers, they've been rescuers saving the team in the dying moments from the underperforming starters.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

On the subject of subs / finishers / bench warmers / non-starters, Jones only used 3 on Sat and one of those was for a pretty notional 2 minutes.

Not sure if that's a change of policy / Jones reading the game / didn't have confidence in the bench but, whatever, wish that would takeover as the norm from emptying the bench. Sometimes subs really add and a lot was made of the bench impact in our winning run, but all too often teams just lose their shape and it becomes a case of which ends up as the less incoherent mess.

Trust your eyes, coaches! Fresh legs don't always outweigh being in the rhythm of the game.

 

[RedruthRFC]

On the subject of subs / finishers / bench warmers / non-starters, Jones only used 3 on Sat and one of those was for a pretty notional 2 minutes.

Not sure if that's a change of policy / Jones reading the game / didn't have confidence in the bench but, whatever, wish that would takeover as the norm from emptying the bench. Sometimes subs really add and a lot was made of the bench impact in our winning run, but all too often teams just lose their shape and it becomes a case of which ends up as the less incoherent mess.

Trust your eyes, coaches! Fresh legs don't always outweigh being in the rhythm of the game.

My impression is that in international rugby, subs have moved from the realm of coaching to that of sports science and are made based on performance metrics more so than what can be identified visually. IIRC at the start of his tenure Jones talked about using the time it took players to get back to their feet after contact as a metric of when they need to be substituted. Being the sort of bloke he is, no doubt he would tell you this the decline in subs is a result of his awesome fitness regime meaning that players are now up to playing for 80 minutes!

I can see the argument for the sports science approach - if you wait until your eyes tell you that a player needs to be subbed off, it might be a crucial mistake that makes this clear, where as identifying the decline in performance earlier and making a proactive substitution makes this scenario less likely.

Regarding the way teams lose shape and cohesion when subs are made, I don't think you'll get away from this. I don't perceive subs having this effect in a tight game when they're coming on to hang on for grim death / spark the winning score. In games in which the result is already determined, coaches are always going to take the opportunity to give rest to key players who need it and give game time to others.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also to throw a name out there, Attwood is now back in England. I know lock is not a position of concern for us but anyone think he might get a look in? Apparently he impressed at Toulon.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He should do, But I can't see it

 

[Reiser99]

How about this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44704441

Can't deny he played well for the Baabaa's.

 

[ncurd]

How about this?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44704441

Can't deny he played well for the Baabaa's.

We have two world class wingers he'd struggle for a bench spot.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, depth at back three is good.
They're all pretty injury prone, bar Brown, but I can't see anyone new being looked at unless they really REALLY stood out for their club.
Also I presume Ashton is on EJs shitlist over the Saxons snub, and he wasn't in his plans before the move to France (hence the move to France).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Also Ashton is a finisher and we don't struggle with finishing on the wings, we struggle with creating and Ashton will not do that

 

[Scotty]

Also Ashton is a finisher and we don't struggle with finishing on the wings, we struggle with creating and Ashton will not do that

Your right we dont struggle with finishing and im not saying ashton should walk straight back to the england squad but ashton will create chances, his running and support lines could work well woth ford faz, not his biggest fan but think he has a chance but he has to prove himself in defence and outshine solomona at sale first.

 

[Nudger]

Your right we dont struggle with finishing and im not saying ashton should walk straight back to the england squad but ashton will create chances, his running and support lines could work well woth ford faz, not his biggest fan but think he has a chance but he has to prove himself in defence and outshine solomona at sale first.

 

[Nudger]

And yarde