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England 6 Nation squad 2024

Wendigo7 said:
He's searching for combinations. Tbh I think eddie was doing the same.

If we could just fix the backs and how they join with the forwards, that would reveal who is and who isn't up for it.

Pleased Waboso gets a start, we're desperate for speed and real threat outwide and he provides that. We need to stick with him.
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I'll be pleased until I see he's replaced Freeman
 
Wendigo7 said:
He's one of the best players we have ever had at under age,
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He's very good but I don't think one of the best ever
Guys like Mercer were taking the mick with how much better they were than everyone else

All these headlines are because of the tries he ran in in the opening round - from interviews I've seen he's very much been reading all this press as well
 
Wendigo7 said:
He's one of the best players we have ever had at under age, but the hype is silly.
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Is he even the best of the current crop of U20s? Better than either prop?
He's certainly a long way from the best U20s player we've ever had - even though it appears that he thinks that he is.
 
Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Jesus, leave the young lad alone. He loves that character and humour side of things and is just having fun and not taking life too seriously.
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He's at an age where everyone thinks they'll conquer the world. Difference is that he's got external noise telling him he'll do that too. It would be surprising if he didn't have a fairly healthy self regard. But any criticism is directed at those bigging him up, not the kid himself.
 
Just read in the Times that since the 2019 RWC England have given debuts to 50 players (Ire 34) with 34 of those having 9 caps or fewer.

Also using Beirne as an example of how the Irish develop their players. Making the point that even as late as 24 he wasn't good enough for a contract with Leinster but has subsequently developed an all court game that would now make him an automatic Lions starter. Comparing him to Itoje, while acknowledging he's influential, saying that he's still pretty much doing what he's always done and hasn't developed that all round game despite having 30 more caps.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
He's very good but I don't think one of the best ever
Guys like Mercer were taking the mick with how much better they were than everyone else

All these headlines are because of the tries he ran in in the opening round - from interviews I've seen he's very much been reading all this press as well
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Yeah pretty much this.


Saints fans hyping him up cause he was running around semi pro champ players and now everyone else is doing it due to the U20's


It's everyone being desperate to be the ones to say ohh I said this guy will be the next world star. Every year there is the best ever England age grade player. Reality is very few live up to that hype.

I get it people should let him have fun, but if you want to develop that character don't be surprised if people push back.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Just read in the Times that since the 2019 RWC England have given debuts to 50 players (Ire 34) with 34 of those having 9 caps or fewer.

Also using Beirne as an example of how the Irish develop their players. Making the point that even as late as 24 he wasn't good enough for a contract with Leinster but has subsequently developed an all court game that would now make him an automatic Lions starter. Comparing him to Itoje, while acknowledging he's influential, saying that he's still pretty much doing what he's always done and hasn't developed that all round game despite having 30 more caps.
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I do think sometimes from a selection pov less is more.

You know when you have only 4 clubs to pick from you can really zone in and focus on certain players.
Meanwhile every year it's not just coaches but also press and supporters wanting the next wonder boy in.


Someone has a very good season it's put them in with England, instead of let's see how they do after year 2 or 3 of prem rugby. It's something england has struggled with for years
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Just read in the Times that since the 2019 RWC England have given debuts to 50 players (Ire 34) with 34 of those having 9 caps or fewer.

Also using Beirne as an example of how the Irish develop their players. Making the point that even as late as 24 he wasn't good enough for a contract with Leinster but has subsequently developed an all court game that would now make him an automatic Lions starter. Comparing him to Itoje, while acknowledging he's influential, saying that he's still pretty much doing what he's always done and hasn't developed that all round game despite having 30 more caps.
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I've heard we are using a different centre pairing every other game. 19 combinations in 45 games. Part of the problem is the constant search for Manu 2.0. Then any centre we do bring in they are asked to be Manu and not play there normal game. I'm not sure England or the fans give players time to grow or gain experience.

The fans don't help with the constant requests for players to be dropped on the back of one game. 6,10, 12,13, being amongst the most argued about. With no clear replacements at 1 and 3. I think it's also no coincidence that England always look better with a nucleus from one or two clubs.
 
TBF on the 12 thing who could you argue has been really hard done by in terms of selection? In the past like 10 years at least
 
LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
TBF on the 12 thing who could you argue has been really hard done by in terms of selection? In the past like 10 years at least
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Tomkins, Williams, Redpath, Harris.
Devoto would be in the list if he'd managed to put together 2 consecutive injury-free years.

And is it so much "trying to find the next Manu" as "Manu is still plenty good enough when fit, whilst Farrell is either 10 or 12".
The only example I can really agree with (that I can think of off-hand) "trying to find the next Manu" is trying to shoehorn Lawrence into the 12 shirt, where we can show off his weaknesses, and ignore his strengths.

But then, I've always said that one of the hardest things for an England coach is to pick which players to show faith in, and then to show that faith through a run of poor form. Fans and Press want selection based on form (meaning about 6 weeks worth) - which means at least half the team to be changed for each international window; and no consistency ever built, and no players ever feeling comfortable at international level, and able to take a risk - as pretty much any risk that doesn't come off will see them crucified in the press and dropped for the next bright-and-shiny.
If you've only got 2-4 options, grading them into a pecking order must be pretty easy. England typically have 10 or so options, covering the same range of quality - so grading them is harder, resisting calls to change them is harder, investing 50 caps worth of experience is harder; and helping any of them actually fulfil their potential is harder.


Let's face it; the 4 I listed above (tongue in cheek), only Redpath could have expected more than a handful of caps for England. All bar maybe Williams (enforced by injury) have picked up enough caps to be comfortable at international level - a height they likely wouldn't have reached with England.
 
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Obviously congrats to Care for his ton but since his first cap 158 more players have debuted with something like 78 having less than 10 caps and 49 less than 5.

So that's 10 new caps a year over 16 years. I don't know if that's high compared to others but it feels like it. Some of the names aren't even legends in their own households.

2018 particularly non vintage with Coka being the only one of 7 to exceed 8 caps.

2021 madness saw 23 new faces of which 18 currently have less than 8 caps.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Obviously congrats to Care for his ton but since his first cap 158 more players have debuted with something like 78 having less than 10 caps and 49 less than 5.

So that's 10 new caps a year over 16 years. I don't know if that's high compared to others but it feels like it. Some of the names aren't even legends in their own households.

2018 particularly non vintage with Coka being the only one of 7 to exceed 8 caps.

2021 madness saw 23 new faces of which 18 currently have less than 8 caps.
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Jones effect?
 

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