England 6 Nation squad 2024

[dirty harry]

I actively want Heyes to be better than he is. He's just OK. I hope he gets better with time, but right now he's squad material at best.

I think he will, he has a great performance platform, a bit more exposure and the right learning environment I think hell be a top player.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think he will, he has a great performance platform, a bit more exposure and the right learning environment I think hell be a top player.

Doesn't sound like a first choice tier 1 international then, really

 

[Geordie]

Really? How so? I thought Englands set peice was pretty conservative last year, back to basics, set peice first, kick the points after it type of gameplan.

A little 20 years ago reminiscent no?

We could win a turnover at the end of Jones reign....and we're the most penalised team going....

It's all stopped and been fixed. Is that conservatism or good management.

You must be enjoying all these bites your getting for your wums......

 

[dirty harry]

We could win a turnover at the end of Jones reign....and we're the most penalised team going....

It's all stopped and been fixed. Is that conservatism or good management.

You must be enjoying all these bites your getting for your wums......

Wums?

I find that extremely rude, I've complimented Borthwick on a fantastic job last season, I'm discussing how I think Heyes will be very good, in fact the only minor question of the England management is selecting 2 old props who dont really offer enough to justify selection ahead of players who have to perform in 12 months time to secure a top seed.

The exact same discussion I was having about Alun wyn Jones last year. In fact I'm not even criticising the decision, I'm questioning whether Borthwick is being conservative with his selection because that's all he knows, or after a very good first season is developing a transition plan capable of replacing Cole and Marler.

I find it crazy to be so sensitive over this type of discussion ll

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Cole doesn't have many years left in him but then the argument should be, if age is such a detriment to his performance, others should have replaced him on merit. Whilst his work around the park isn't so great, I think the likes of M Vunipola show what folly it is to pick a player for the secondary attributes first at the cost of the primary one. Our complete inability to scrummage was the single largest contributor to our defeat in 2019, especially given how frequently we were knocking on that game. The lack of mobility in our props was not such an issue.

When Cole gets too old, other props should naturally be passing him on merit. As it is, our supply at tighthead has dried up for various reasons. Also, even though we are rebuilding, not every player needs to be swapped out at the same time for future prospects. Sometimes you should just pick some older, experienced players in good form even if you think you may replace them in 2 years time. That's fine, then hopefully when you replace them, the newer players now will have 2 years more experience and be settled.

I want to see the likes of Cole replaced as he is not the future for us but I want the argument to be "Cole should go because player X is clearly better" rather than "Cole should be replaced because he is old and player X might be better in the future." South Africa have had some of the bulkiest, least mobile props in the game for years and it doesn't seem to have harmed them. If the rest of the team is able to deal with the props being slightly less mobile then pick the ones that will do the primary role of props best. There is a reason that, over time, the preferred type of player in certain positions has tended towards certain body types and skillsets.

Mobile props and lineout flankers are my 2 pet peeves when it comes to picking players for the secondary characteristics first and practically ignoring what their primary role is.

 

[dirty harry]

Cole doesn't have many years left in him but then the argument should be, if age is such a detriment to his performance, others should have replaced him on merit. Whilst his work around the park isn't so great, I think the likes of M Vunipola show what folly it is to pick a player for the secondary attributes first at the cost of the primary one. Our complete inability to scrummage was the single largest contributor to our defeat in 2019, especially given how frequently we were knocking on that game. The lack of mobility in our props was not such an issue.

When Cole gets too old, other props should naturally be passing him on merit. As it is, our supply at tighthead has dried up for various reasons. Also, even though we are rebuilding, not every player needs to be swapped out at the same time for future prospects. Sometimes you should just pick some older, experienced players in good form even if you think you may replace them in 2 years time. That's fine, then hopefully when you replace them, the newer players now will have 2 years more experience and be settled.

I want to see the likes of Cole replaced as he is not the future for us but I want the argument to be "Cole should go because player X is clearly better" rather than "Cole should be replaced because he is old and player X might be better in the future." South Africa have had some of the bulkiest, least mobile props in the game for years and it doesn't seem to have harmed them. If the rest of the team is able to deal with the props being slightly less mobile then pick the ones that will do the primary role of props best. There is a reason that, over time, the preferred type of player in certain positions has tended towards certain body types and skillsets.

Mobile props and lineout flankers are my 2 pet peeves when it comes to picking players for the secondary characteristics first and practically ignoring what their primary role is.

So you are squarely in the camp that Borthwick is creating a culture where the younger boys are going to have to scrap for their minutes, and by that creating better players?

I get it, I hope your right. In many ways i think Gatland has gone nuclear in not selecting Francis at 31 or Lewis at 28, who are clearly better scrummagers than the youngers selected.

Itll be interesting to see the results in the short and longer term

 

[West Country Wail]

If Borthwick is willing to sacrifice mobility for scrum dominance, then I don't know why he hasn't called up Ehren Painter for a look or is that too soon?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's not like Marler and Cole are on deaths door, they're starting every week in the Prem/Europe

 

[Jimbo]

So you are squarely in the camp that Borthwick is creating a culture where the younger boys are going to have to scrap for their minutes, and by that creating better players?

I get it, I hope your right. In many ways i think Gatland has gone nuclear in not selecting Francis at 31 or Lewis at 28, who are clearly better scrummagers than the youngers selected.

Itll be interesting to see the results in the short and longer term

Its balance and the situation is a lot more nuanced, he might be hoping that he can hold onto the old props for another couple of seasons by which time a couple of the very promising prospects are ready, skipping a big gap isn't ideal but he can only do so much with what's available. I'm not really sure how one could really measure the success or failure of this, I mean if England start conceding scrum penalties, the alternatives would also be doing that as they have proved inferior in this area. If and when England don't do so well we're unlikely to sit here and say we lost that because our props simply were not mobile enough and too old.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So you are squarely in the camp that Borthwick is creating a culture where the younger boys are going to have to scrap for their minutes, and by that creating better players?

I get it, I hope your right. In many ways i think Gatland has gone nuclear in not selecting Francis at 31 or Lewis at 28, who are clearly better scrummagers than the youngers selected.

Itll be interesting to see the results in the short and longer term

These players play for clubs that Borthwick is not in control of. They will have chances to prove themselves there. There is a difference between a coach being stubborn and refusing to look at alternative (Jones with scrumhalves) and a coach picking a player who is actually still in good form without prejudice over their age. There are opportunities to try out the prospects throughout the year (again a failing of Jones) and those times you can pick a few who may not be the best to see how they hack it. You also have the option to play them from the bench and let them put in performances that way.

I'm saying every player in the England squad and particularly those starting should be there on merit. Some exceptions for players with credit in the bank etc who maybe had one or 2 poor games but a player should not be swapped out just because. If Cole is still doing the primary role of a TH better than the alternatives, then Cole starts. Put your 2nd best on the bench. In games against tier 2, maybe start your 2nd best and bench your 3rd best.

 

[Scotty]

So you are squarely in the camp that Borthwick is creating a culture where the younger boys are going to have to scrap for their minutes, and by that creating better players?

I get it, I hope your right. In many ways i think Gatland has gone nuclear in not selecting Francis at 31 or Lewis at 28, who are clearly better scrummagers than the youngers selected.

Itll be interesting to see the results in the short and longer term

Yes younger players are going to have to scrap for their minutes....England is not a development league, they should be coming to England good enough for a bench spot and fight for the starting shirt, see Care or George? Both sat on the bench for a long time.

I want to see Cole replaced but honestly there are very few who can bring the same level of scrummaging as he does, if someone does and brings more round the park aswell then get him benched. And fight to take the shirt off Cole

Id have had Painter in but not exactly a mobile guy, opoku is to young/inexperienced so let them develop and stick with Cole till they do.

Hayes/stuart should be getting gametime as they are good players but they also kind of need replacing, it isnt an area od strength and Cole(unfortunately) is the best we have.

 

[LIONSxv]

Any updates on Martin?

Underhill has been injured but seemed to train, Genge appears to be fit, but no update

I don't hold much hope out for Lawrence, due to the nature of the injury. Hip injuries can heal quite quickly. However the 8 weeks would indicate something fairly serious.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Id guess that Martin is expected to miss the tournament as he wasn't included in the rehabbing-in-camp list
Manu, for example, is expected to miss the first 2, maybe 3, rounds, but was included

The walking wounded didn't travel to Girona, so it's not like they didn't want to take him away from the physios for a week or anything

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Any updates on Martin?

Underhill has been injured but seemed to train, Genge appears to be fit, but no update

I don't hold much hope out for Lawrence, due to the nature of the injury. Hip injuries can heal quite quickly. However the 8 weeks would indicate something fairly serious.

Reported that Genge will be ready for Italy.

On bringing through new players, it's 100% for the challengers to prove there's a good reason to take the shirt from the incumbent.

Incumbent is better player, incumbent starts, challenger on bench to gain experience.

Challenger gets to same standard as incumbent. Starter picked according to form.

Challenger overtakes incumbent, becomes new incumbent and the cycle starts again.

I liked Jones idea of continuity but where he failed was not giving the challengers their proper chances.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

For italy, based on the rumours re fitness etc, I'm expecting:
1. Marler 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Underhill 7. Curry 8. Earl
9. Mitchell 10. M Smith 11. Daly 12. Dingwall 13. Slade 14. Freeman 15. Steward
16. Dan 17. Genge 18. Cole 19. Isiekwe 20. Dombrandt 21. Care 22. F Smith 23. Feyi-Waboso / Beard

 

[Geordie]

For italy, based on the rumours re fitness etc, I'm expecting:
1. Marler 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Underhill 7. Curry 8. Earl
9. Mitchell 10. M Smith 11. Daly 12. Dingwall 13. Slade 14. Freeman 15. Steward
16. Dan 17. Genge 18. Heyes 19. Isiekwe 20. Dombrandt 21. Care 22. F Smith 23. Feyi-Waboso / Beard

Curry? Did i miss something?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Curry? Did i miss something?

There's two of them remember

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Curry? Did i miss something?

Yep, a 'B'.

Last time he got selected I thought he struggled a bit. If given another chance let's hope he takes it.

 

[Geordie]

Yeah i know theres two...i complete missed the fact Ben had been included. My apologies.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

For italy, based on the rumours re fitness etc, I'm expecting:
1. Marler 2. George 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Chessum 6. Underhill 7. Curry 8. Earl
9. Mitchell 10. M Smith 11. Daly 12. Dingwall 13. Slade 14. Freeman 15. Steward
16. Dan 17. Genge 18. Cole 19. Isiekwe 20. Dombrandt 21. Care 22. F Smith 23. Feyi-Waboso / Beard

Would honestly take that.
Would play Roebuck on the wing over Daly and maybe Furbank on the bench.