England 6 Nation squad 2024

[BPM]

Exactly. They really aren't blocking anyone. Heyes has had plenty of opportunity to leapfrog Cole at club level and hasn't managed it yet - mainly because he hasn't been good enough.

Sinckler has really been poor for about 3yrs. If there were more options, he'd have been cut loose before now. Stuart can be good but is inconsistent.

A lot of the age grade props - Marcus Street springs to mind - just haven't amounted to much so far. They may do as they mature but currently we have a big gap between Cole and Stuart because there isn't a tighthead in their late 20s who is good enough. Paul Hill was promising early on and then became incredibly average.

On the loosehead side, it's a much closer contest between Genge and Marler, but Ellis has barely played this season. Rodd is third choice and rightly so. It's a shame VRR and Obano haven't had more opportunities but injuries have most definitely played a part in both cases. We have two excellent prospects coming through in Baxter and Brantingham.

 

[dirty harry]

Who's better, though?

Well it really does depend on context, who's better at scrummaging in England, probably very few. More rounded players with a higher potential ceiling? There are certainly a few options.

This year is a rebuild year, Wales have a squad of kids, Italy arent much better, France and Ireland are head and shoulders above England, so who care if England finish 3rd or 4th. Surely it's more important to get up the rankings next season for RWC seedings.

Is Cole going to contribute next season? Probably little if anything, so why not give the opportunity to blood someone who will when it counts more?

 

[dirty harry]

Exactly. They really aren't blocking anyone. Heyes has had plenty of opportunity to leapfrog Cole at club level and hasn't managed it yet - mainly because he hasn't been good enough.

Sinckler has really been poor for about 3yrs. If there were more options, he'd have been cut loose before now. Stuart can be good but is inconsistent.

A lot of the age grade props - Marcus Street springs to mind - just haven't amounted to much so far. They may do as they mature but currently we have a big gap between Cole and Stuart because there isn't a tighthead in their late 20s who is good enough. Paul Hill was promising early on and then became incredibly average.

On the loosehead side, it's a much closer contest between Genge and Marler, but Ellis has barely played this season. Rodd is third choice and rightly so. It's a shame VRR and Obano haven't had more opportunities but injuries have most definitely played a part in both cases. We have two excellent prospects coming through in Baxter and Brantingham.

Isnt that making my argument for me though, noone is very consistent now, the only way to become consistent is to consistently play.

Gatland understands the importance of RWC seeding better than anyone, hence Wales get better draws than most. By end of 2025 Cole will either be retired or clinging on for dear life, the autumn 2025 might mean England being seeded 1st or 2nd group, wouldnt you want Stuart playing now, if hes going to have to play then?

 

[Geordie]

There's massive enforced changes throughout the side...so maybe it makes sense to keep the two best scrummaging props in there for stability. The rest of the pack can do the leg work.

Besides as been pointed out there's no challengers...or very few...

 

[Which Tyler]

So you actively want us to use a selection criteria of "not good enough, not the best available, but might be if we take a gamble and it pays off" in favour of "is good enough, is the best available, isn't a gamble"?

Seems odd to me, but there you go.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well that's the thing isnt it, Cole could maintain his scrummaging strength well into his 40's, doesnt mean he can play international rugby, even though hes nearly there lol.

But my apologies, I wasnt trying to derail the thread with Cole bashing, I just dont understand the rationale of selecting players who will block the development of others.

Well he didn't play for Eng for years after 2019 so it's not like others haven't had big opportunities to take the shirt.

Ideal world of course you'd want more from your props, but Borthwick's right to prioritise the basics.

At LH Marler's long been our best all round option. Genge will have the odd spectacular moment or even game, but Marler's wily and knows his way around.

 

[BPM]

Isnt that making my argument for me though, noone is very consistent now, the only way to become consistent is to consistently play.

Gatland understands the importance of RWC seeding better than anyone, hence Wales get better draws than most. By end of 2025 Cole will either be retired or clinging on for dear life, the autumn 2025 might mean England being seeded 1st or 2nd group, wouldnt you want Stuart playing now, if hes going to have to play then?

When fit, Stuart starts most weeks for Bath. He plays plenty, he just isn't improving to the extent he needs to take the England starting jersey.

By the end of next year, I'd hope Heyes has supplanted Cole and becomes a more serious option. As of right now, he's just OK with no outstanding qualities to speak of.

Opoku-Fordjour looks like a brilliant prospect, but he's more than a year off being a potential starter IMO.

 

[BPM]

So you actively want us to use a selection criteria of "not good enough, not the best available, but might be if we take a gamble and it pays off" in favour of "is good enough, is the best available, isn't a gamble"?

Seems odd to me, but there you go.

Of course he does. That's the criteria the Welsh hope we'd use for every position.

 

[dirty harry]

So you actively want us to use a selection criteria of "not good enough, not the best available, but might be if we take a gamble and it pays off" in favour of "is good enough, is the best available, isn't a gamble"?

Seems odd to me, but there you go.

Well isnt that a bad faith rehash of what was said lol.

My argument is that Cole offers little outside the scrum in reality, and his advanced age 37? Means he will not be there for long. Lots of international teams have found a deep dark hole in positions when a stand out has dominated too long, I'm thinking the Flood, Myler, Hodgson, Robson years lol

 

[dirty harry]

When fit, Stuart starts most weeks for Bath. He plays plenty, he just isn't improving to the extent he needs to take the England starting jersey.

By the end of next year, I'd hope Heyes has supplanted Cole and becomes a more serious option. As of right now, he's just OK with no outstanding qualities to speak of.

Opoku-Fordjour looks like a brilliant prospect, but he's more than a year off being a potential starter IMO.

I like Heyes, I see him pushing through and making a big impact

 

[Geordie]

Well isnt that a bad faith rehash of what was said lol.

My argument is that Cole offers little outside the scrum in reality, and his advanced age 37? Means he will not be there for long. Lots of international teams have found a deep dark hole in positions when a stand out has dominated too long, I'm thinking the Flood, Myler, Hodgson, Robson years lol

Its a pretty important part of the game....

 

[BPM]

I like Heyes, I see him pushing through and making a big impact

Why though? He really hasn't so far. He's no more than OK in any facet.

 

[dirty harry]

Its a pretty important part of the game....

Of course it is, it's also not about 1 player.

I'm just trying to work out if Borthwick is being conservative in his selection, or whether he has a genuine plan for transition

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would rather a prop you have to wheel to each scrum in a wheel barrow than one who gives away a penalty every knock on

 

[Which Tyler]

Well isnt that a bad faith rehash of what was said lol.

My argument is that Cole offers little outside the scrum in reality, and his advanced age 37? Means he will not be there for long. Lots of international teams have found a deep dark hole in positions when a stand out has dominated too long, I'm thinking the Flood, Myler, Hodgson, Robson years lol

A] Not really, no.
B] Well isn't that a bad faith rehash of history, during which Cole has not dominated selection for too long.

Whilst there's no prop who's better than Cole, I'm happy enough for Cole to be starting.
If anyone else wants his shirt, be better than him. If you're second best, don't complain about being 2nd choice.

The time for prioritising future potential is when there's not much different in the here and now, not when 1 player is international standard and the pretender isn't.

 

[Geordie]

Of course it is, it's also not about 1 player.

I'm just trying to work out if Borthwick is being conservative in his selection, or whether he has a genuine plan for transition

He's being Conservative in many other areas but not in the set piece and pack....

 

[dirty harry]

Why though? He really hasn't so far. He's no more than OK in any facet.

Because he has a rounded game, and hes still what 24, already has a couple caps to his name and becoming established.

He can improve in specific areas, but he has a good read and sense, especially in defence. Hands are decent too, he reminds me of a young Vickery, however granted I've only seen him player 4/5 times tbh

 

[dirty harry]

He's being Conservative in many other areas but not in the set piece and pack....

Really? How so? I thought Englands set peice was pretty conservative last year, back to basics, set peice first, kick the points after it type of gameplan.

A little 20 years ago reminiscent no?

 

[BPM]

I actively want Heyes to be better than he is. He's just OK. I hope he gets better with time, but right now he's squad material at best.

 

[dirty harry]

And just to add, I absolutely think Borthwick did the right thing last year, he had to turn momentum, which is like turning a ship, you cant just 180, you have to build into it.

I'd give Borthwick a 9/10 for his first 12 months, and liken it to Gatlands 2008 choices.