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England 2022/23

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All very reasonable/understandable

It took our defence months to get back on form after Forshaw left, and that's with his "apprentice" taking over the reigns, who'd been working with the players all season - can't imagine how disruptive losing Head and Defence coach and knowing the rest are leaving too
 
Borthwick has to bear a chunk of the responsibility for that. I know you want to stick with who you are familiar with but it was his choice to do that to his old club. Can we not just put feelers out there for proven international quality assistant coaches? Why must we keep going for league rejects and club coaches with limited pedigree and no international experience?
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Borthwick has to bear a chunk of the responsibility for that. I know you want to stick with who you are familiar with but it was his choice to do that to his old club. Can we not just put feelers out there for proven international quality assistant coaches? Why must we keep going for league rejects and club coaches with limited pedigree and no international experience?
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Borthwick had nothing to do with his own negotiations and if Pinchen is telling it truthfully and accurately, the Sweeney and the RFU effectively tried to strong arm and use emotional blackmail to avoid paying compensation to a club that was already struggling financially with a huge loss in revenue. Maybe the RFU can't be completely blamed for Wasps or Worcester, but if Leicester went the same way because the RFU was trying to save itself money after completely messing up it's own coaching situation then it definitely would be responsible.

Overall it supports the narrative that this was a knee jerk reaction that was poorly planned for a coach and coaching group that wasn't even properly proven at club level and certainly not at European level, let alone international level.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Borthwick has to bear a chunk of the responsibility for that. I know you want to stick with who you are familiar with but it was his choice to do that to his old club. Can we not just put feelers out there for proven international quality assistant coaches? Why must we keep going for league rejects and club coaches with limited pedigree and no international experience?
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Total responsibility. The team he put around him was entirely his choice.

Feel very sorry for Tigers although they must know that's the way it often works in pro sport. Mid season timing of some changes won't have helped.

And it's not even a remotely convincing international coaching team either. I'll wager that some of them will be back on the job market in 18 months.

#blameeddie
 
The European final reinforced a couple of things.

Teams need leadership. Both over the top into the opposition faces and cool decision making types.

There's still a place for the splintering opponents into bits power game, particularly in the front 5.

Where are our leaders? Where are our monsters?
 
Old Hooker said:
Nowell's taken himself out of RWC contention. Saves Borthwick a job I suppose.

www.bbc.co.uk

Jack Nowell: England winger makes himself unavailable for World Cup

Exeter winger Jack Nowell says he will not make himself available for England's World Cup squad.
www.bbc.co.uk
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Makes sense, unlikely to make the RWC squad but probably likely to make the training squads - he now gets a full off season/final summer at home, a less stressful move to France, and is available for his new club from day dot (which I imagine they probably incentivised)

Really he's opted out of running broncos and a bag of training kit in favour of a summer of surf in Cornwall
 
Some interesting bits from Sale's media day today:
Ben had his operation this morning and it's better than expected: they initially thought he'd fully snapped two of the three muscles(?) in the hamstring but turns out one is fully gone and another is "just" badly torn - reduces his recovery time to the point he might be in the convo for the RWC, England's medics in conversation about his recovery

Roebuck and Carpenter both had conversations with Borthwick, but Roebuck has also had Scotland on the blower
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Makes sense, unlikely to make the RWC squad but probably likely to make the training squads - he now gets a full off season/final summer at home, a less stressful move to France, and is available for his new club from day dot (which I imagine they probably incentivised)

Really he's opted out of running broncos and a bag of training kit in favour of a summer of surf in Cornwall
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Why not...? Health is more precious than the World Cup. Better to heal the knee than permanently injure it and stay out of games altogether. Or maybe even disabled.
 
Peel on why he turned down England: https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https:...hy-i-turned-down-england-to-stay-at-saracens/

"I know I might not get another chance to coach with England again. But what we decided as a family was that while I might not get that opportunity, if I did go for it now, I definitely would not get the chance to spend the time with my kids from the ages of 12 to 16 and 10 to 14.

"When I spoke to Steve, I told him it was a huge honour to be even considered for the job and I was super excited about it. But having had time to reflect, I felt that if I keep developing as a coach and working hard, I might have another chance in the future. If I don't, I am fine with that, but I am never going to get the chance again to spend the next World Cup cycle with my kids."
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Huge respect for that.
 
What does Englands best starting tight 5 and bench tight forwards look like on paper for the RWC if you were in Borthwicks shoes?

Who do you think the strongest combination would be?
 
In a purely hypothetical situation, on paper etc.etc.etc., for me it's:

Obano, George, Sinckler (we really have no tightheads in this country)
Martin, Chessum (I know it's still early doors on these two but they noticeably improve almost every game - think they're gonna be this generations Johnson/Kay)

A more realistic one:
Genge, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Chessum
 
Which Tyler said:
Peel on why he turned down England: https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https:...hy-i-turned-down-england-to-stay-at-saracens/


Huge respect for that.
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Yep, and all rings true. But can't help wondering whether the decision was also influenced by an unconvincing Eng coaching set up and player group. Would he have come to same decision, or at least agonised more, if France or the Boks had come calling??

I'd be amazed if our RWC starting front row isn't Genge, George and Sinckler. The only realistic question is who partners Itoje and given Chessum may not be fit that surely has to be Martin now. Who knows what's going on with LCD, maybe he might be in the mix?

Post RWC I'd like to see something like:

Genge
LCD
Stuart
Isiekwe
Chessum
Martin (Yes I know about him and locking…).
Curry
Mercer

I'm very excited about Pearson who will surely start to get some game time fairly soon and also what CCS might bring in a couple of years. Where they end up playing their club rugby might have a big impact on their prospects.
 
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