• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Did it happen quite like we're led to believe?

My knowledge of the US economy is virtually non-existant, but I'd still like to pose something:

Starting a war abroad is an age old tactic used by those in power to distract the population from problems at home. From King Henry V through to Margaret Thatcher, the powers at the top of the food chain have used conflict to try and restore their popularity in the face of domestic crisis.

While there may be no truth in any of the theories banded about, is it so far fetched to even suggest that the Bush government might sacrifice a few of what they see as worthless lives in order to keep themselves in power? Ideally you would like to say with 100% certainty that it couldn't happen, that no one is that set on power that they would trade it for human life. However, if history has taught us one thing, it is to always question the actions of those who want our trust.
[/b]


It goes beyond a Government trying to divert people form their day to day problems or to keep control - they're a just puppets, tools (both meanings involved), and they would do anything to reach their objective. I mean, how do we come to this:

RFID Chip

I find totally amazing that we accept being micro chipped / databased like animals without saying anything - and we don't say anything cause they make sure we're scared enough so we accept whatever our "leaders" want us to do - that's madness but they still get away with it.

again, watch that documentary Zeitgeist
it's quite scary how some points actually make sense...

For how much you think conspiracy theories are stupid, there are facts that you cannot close your eyes on, or way too much coincidences - this is how i started to wonder - watching some "documentaries", reading the paper, watching the news, not seeing anything wrong until arriving to a point where i thought: wait a minute, there's way too much coincidences to be just coincidences...

Google some of these terms:

Council on Foreign Relations
Trilateral Commission
Illuminati
Gulf of Tonkin Incident
Pearl Harbour
operation anthropoid

So many historical events or organizations revolving around the same people or systems - way too much coincidences to just be coincidences - look at the facts for what they are: Facts and not some biased interpretation... Read between the lines - that's all i am saying
 
An interesting read -

http://www.projectcensored.org/censored_2008/index.htm

#16 No Hard Evidence Connecting Bin Laden to 9/11
Source:

The Muckraker Report, June 6, 2006, and Ithaca Journal, June 29, 2006

***le: “FBI says, ‘No Hard Evidence Connecting Bin Laden to 9/11’â€

Author: Ed Haas

http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html

Student Researcher: Bianca May and Morgan Ulery
Faculty Evaluator: Ben Frymer, Ph.D.

Osama bin Laden’s role in the events of September 11, 2001 is not mentioned on the FBI’s “Ten Most Wanted†poster.
On June 5, 2006, author Ed Haas contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation headquarters to ask why, while claiming that bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 1998 bombings of US Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, the poster does not indicate that he is wanted in connection with the events of 9/11.
Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI responded, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.†Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.†Asked to explain the process, Tomb responded, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice then decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.â€
Haas pauses to ask the question, “If the US government does not have enough hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11, how is it possible that it had enough evidence to invade Afghanistan to ‘smoke him out of his cave?’†Through corporate media, the Bush administration told the American people that bin Laden was “Public Enemy Number One,†responsible for the deaths of nearly 3,000 people on September 11, 2001. The federal government claims to have invaded Afghanistan to “root out†bin Laden and the Taliban, yet nearly six years later, the FBI said that it had no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.

Though the world was to have been convinced by the December 2001 release of a bin Laden “confession video,†the Department of Defense issued a press release to accompany this video in which Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said, “There was no doubt of bin Laden’s responsibility for the 9/11 attacks even before the tape was discovered.â€
In a CNN article regarding the bin Laden tape, then New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said that “the tape removes any doubt that the US military campaign targeting bin Laden and his associates is more than justified.†Senator Richard Shelby, R-Alabama, the vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said, “The tape’s release is central to informing people in the outside world who don’t believe bin Laden was involved in the September 11 attacks.†Shelby went on to say “I don’t know how they can be in denial after they see this tape.â€
Haas attempted to secure a reference to US government authentication of the bin Laden “confession video,†to no avail. However, it is conclusive that the Bush Administration and US Congress, along with corporate media, presented the video as authentic. So why doesn’t the FBI view the “confession video†as hard evidence? After all, notes Haas, if the FBI is investigating a crime such as drug trafficking, and it discovers a video of members of a drug cartel openly talking about a successful distribution operation in the United States, that video would be presented to a federal grand jury. The participants identified in the video would be indicted. The video alone would serve as sufficient evidence to net a conviction in a federal court. So why, asks Haas, is the bin Laden “confession video†not carrying the same weight with the FBI?
Haas strongly suggests that we begin asking questions, “The fact that the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Osama bin Laden to 9/11 should be headline news around the world. The challenge to the reader is to find out why it is not. Why has the US media blindly read the government-provided 9/11 scripts, rather than investigate without passion, prejudice, or bias, the events of September 11, 2001? Why has the US media blacklisted any guest that might speak of a government-sponsored 9/11 cover-up, rather than seeking out those people who have something to say about 9/11 that is contrary to the government’s account?†Haas continues. “Who is controlling the media message, and how is it that the FBI has no ‘hard evidence’ connecting Osama bin Laden to the events of September 11, 2001, while the US media has played the bin Laden-9/11 connection story for [six] years now as if it has conclusive evidence that bin Laden is responsible for the collapse of the twin towers, the Pentagon attack, and the demise of United Flight 93?â€
UPDATE BY ED HAAS
On June 6, 2006 the Muckraker Report ran a piece by Ed Haas ***led “FBI says, ‘No hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.’†Haas is the editor and a writer for the Muckraker Report. At the center of this article remains the authenticity and truthfulness of the videotape released by the federal government on December 13, 2001 in which it is reported that Osama bin Laden “confesses†to the September 11, 2001 attacks. The corporate mediaâ€"television, radio, and newspapersâ€"across the United States and the world repeated, virtually non-stop for a week after the videotape’s release, the government account of OBL “confessing.â€
However, not one document has been released that demonstrates the authenticity of the videotape or that it even went through an authentication process. The Muckraker Report has submitted Freedom of Information Act requests to the FBI, CIA, Department of Defense, and CENTCOM requesting documentation that would demonstrate the authenticity of the videotape and the dates/circumstances in which the videotape was discovered. CENTCOM has yet to reply to the FOIA request. After losing an appeal, the FBI responded that no documents could be found responsive to the request. The Department of Defense referred the Muckraker Report to CENTCOM while also indicating that it had no documents responsive to the FOIA request either.
The CIA however claims that it can neither confirm nor deny the existence or nonexistence of records responsive to the request. According to the CIA the fact of the existence or nonexistence of requested records is properly classified and is intelligence sources and methods information that is protected from disclosure by section 6 of the CIA Act of 1949, as amended. Therefore, the Agency has denied your request pursuant to FOIA exemptions (B)(1) and (B)(3).
Many people believe that if the videotape is authentic, it should be sufficient hard evidence for the FBI to connect bin Laden to 9/11. The Muckraker Report agrees. However, for the Department of Justice to indict bin Laden for the 9/11 attacks, something the government has yet to do, the videotape would have to be entered into evidence and subjected to additional scrutiny. This appears to be something the government wishes to avoid.
Some believe that the video is a fake. They refer to it as the “fat bin Ladenâ€video. The Muckraker Report believes that while the videotape is indeed authentic, it was the result of an elaborate CIA sting operation. The Muckraker Report also believes that the reason why there is no documentation that demonstrates that the videotape went through an authenticity process is because the CIA knew it was authentic, they arranged the taping.
It is highly probable that the videotape was taped on September 26, 2001â€"before the US invaded Afghanistan
 
The one thing the USA does well is divert blame. There are so many positions of power it's impossible to blame one person or organisation. The US government treats the CIA like a naughty step child, which they give petrol money to instead of taking the keys away. They get some American people to be against it and some for it. 1-1=0 and once again the US becomes a neutral in the world publics eye. Genius. Exactly what SARFU does. I know there's always two sides to the coin but when one side is always hidden from the public how can we unbias opinions?
 
bush = hitler

please foreigners get a grip

look up on youtube loose change vs popular mechanics debate.. those snotty nosed douche bags from loose change don't know what even hit them.

and Zeitgeist is ****

get a grip.

i know you want to live in a fantasy world and believe bush is the most evil thing to ever walk the planet but honestly you have to be one dumb f*** to agree with anything that Zeitgeist or Loose Change states...

either that or incredibly naive.
 
I don't think anyone has actually claimed Bush is evil. He is a high-ranking politician though, which automatically makes him untrustworthy in today's society.

I can't think of one world leader (especially those heading a major power) who I would trust, and I doubt that will change any time soon.

It's all very well deciding not to believe everything you see in the media - fairly obvious in fact - but that certainly doesn't mean politicians don't try and conceal half the things they do as well.

I'm generalising now though, as I've actually lost most of my interest in what happened 6 years ago.
 
Oooh, and before we all forget- the USA is the real axis of evil, always sticking their noses into world affairs where they don`t belong.

Yup, they should never have gotten involved in WWII. Just imagine, all of us could`ve been saying "Sieg Heil!" and wearing swastikas on our shoulders today, was it not for the interference of those evil Americans. :blink:
 
bush = hitler

please foreigners get a grip

look up on youtube loose change vs popular mechanics debate.. those snotty nosed douche bags from loose change don't know what even hit them.

and Zeitgeist is ****

get a grip.

i know you want to live in a fantasy world and believe bush is the most evil thing to ever walk the planet but honestly you have to be one dumb f*** to agree with anything that Zeitgeist or Loose Change states...

either that or incredibly naive.
[/b]


So if we ever happen to have ideas or concepts that differs from yours then we're not worth anything... i think i read a similar things in some history books... <_<

it's funny how you get all worked up for this - or you had family or friends involved in the 9/11 tragedy or in Irak, and I am honestly and sincerly sorry that it has been put on them - or you're part of the 30odd% who agree with G.W.

Maybe YOU're incredibly naive - think about it 2 secs instead of ranting about other sources of informations that are **** (as you say) - firstly - according to these comments it's clear you didn't even watch these cause clearly you can't handle the info and again, these other sources of informations are raising questions that need to be raised. Talking about Loose Change - i agree it becomes a biz - and as some opposition people say - why the truth would need 3 different verions (3 different Loose Change versions... stupid...) and all the conspiracy theories debunkers are as right as the conspiracy theroist... yet, the only thing they're unable to prove is how a 747 has evaporated at the pentagon just by combustion - Physically Impossible!

From what i read of you on other subjects in the forum you seem to be a real nice guy - but your reactions on the subject only shows how well american people get brainwashed and led to hate anything "unpatriotic" - yeah the famous patriot act... read some history books and you'll be amazed how that "patriot act" concept has been used in past...

read that also:
The Gardian article

And just lately - in today's Time Magazine actually - "After the NIE (National Intelligence Estimate) report that Iran halted its nuclear-weapons program in 2003, President Bush responds: 'I view this report as a warning Signal that they had the program, they halted the program... It's a warning signal that they could restart it.'"

He's pushed by guys like Cheney, Powell, his dad and so on to tell nonsense like that - same for Irak, they'll find any reason to go get control of the middle east... Till when will we accept that mascarade??? Seriously.

I'd like to ask you guys your opinion - not on conspiracy at all, but more on where you see all this going? Irak, Iran, who's coming after bush? is it gonna change anything? if you ask me, I am a bit worried about all this - it seems we accept more and more dramatical stuff - now if you see a bombing or a shooting on TV, it feels like any other news - i think it very dangerous...
 
My knowledge of the US economy is virtually non-existant, but I'd still like to pose something:

Starting a war abroad is an age old tactic used by those in power to distract the population from problems at home. From King Henry V through to General Galtieri and the Argentine Millitary Junta, the powers at the top of the food chain have used conflict to try and restore their popularity in the face of domestic crisis.[/b]

Fixed for the people of the Falkland Islands. :bana:
 
Oooh, and before we all forget- the USA is the real axis of evil, always sticking their noses into world affairs where they don`t belong.

Yup, they should never have gotten involved in WWII. Just imagine, all of us could`ve been saying "Sieg Heil!" and wearing swastikas on our shoulders today, was it not for the interference of those evil Americans. :blink:
[/b]
Japan got the US "involved" when they hit Pearl Harbour, the war had been raging for a couple years already. So they didn't exactly do it out the goodness of thier hearts although I'm sure glad they ended it so swiftly. However the world is a much different place since then, we didn't even know if the world was round for certain yet! For me that's the last honest conflict the USA have been involved in. I don't think thier evil. they should just be more transparent with thier motives
 
Oooh, and before we all forget- the USA is the real axis of evil, always sticking their noses into world affairs where they don`t belong.

Yup, they should never have gotten involved in WWII. Just imagine, all of us could`ve been saying "Sieg Heil!" and wearing swastikas on our shoulders today, was it not for the interference of those evil Americans. :blink:
[/b]

I'm guessing you're not much of a history expert?

Russia probably had a bigger role in the downfall of Hitler.

But, there are so many other factors involved. The Nazis wouldn't have lasted.
 
<div class='quotemain'>
Oooh, and before we all forget- the USA is the real axis of evil, always sticking their noses into world affairs where they don`t belong.

Yup, they should never have gotten involved in WWII. Just imagine, all of us could`ve been saying "Sieg Heil!" and wearing swastikas on our shoulders today, was it not for the interference of those evil Americans. :blink:
[/b]
Japan got the US "involved" when they hit Pearl Harbour, the war had been raging for a couple years already. So they didn't exactly do it out the goodness of thier hearts although I'm sure glad they ended it so swiftly. However the world is a much different place since then, we didn't even know if the world was round for certain yet! For me that's the last honest conflict the USA have been involved in. I don't think thier evil. they should just be more transparent with thier motives [/b][/quote]

Yeah, while I don't doubt the American's resolve and determination and good intentions during the 2nd World War, the Yanks were literally dragged screaming into it, quite happy staying out of it while nicking most of the UK's gold.

You have two distinctive sets of allies. You have the Canadians, the South Africans and the ANZACs. They didn't have to come to the UK's aid in her time of need, remember that fire had collectively burnt them on the beaches of Gallipoli or on the fields of Flanders only 20 years previously so you couldn't blame them if they said "eh..thanks but no thanks mate". But it was the sense of injustice and purpose that they saw collectively beyond "oh crap, the UK is in dire peril" but more "****, lads, this is a tyrannical regeime doing terrible things and destroying freedom and democracy on a ***anic scale." There was a feeling that something had to be done and when Britain was left on its own that was where it was decided that a stand had to be made. I mean, even though Ireland was staunchly neutral, there were Irish who joined up in various ways in order to fight Nazism.

And then you have the..er..less than stellar initial response from the Americans which ranged from generally not bothered to mildly amused with the antics going on in Europe all the way to vaugely supportive of either the UK or the Axis powers (especially if Communism was mentioned in the latter).

As for conspiracy theories, they all depend on one thing: that every aspect had to be pre-planned or manipulated in meticulous detail. And as with the various myths about the British Empire (the outcomes and general results were very much real), the reality is usually that there was very little planning and what happened came about through confusion, luck and coincidence and incompetence.

Now if you want a real conspiracy, try corporate ones, the East India Company in particular and its gradual Enron-like desire to take over India in order to cook the books to cover its huge losses from the British Government. Eventually, when it finally collapsed, the British government was saddled with something it really really didn't want: the Asian subcontinent.
 
Oooh, and before we all forget- the USA is the real axis of evil, always sticking their noses into world affairs where they don`t belong.

Yup, they should never have gotten involved in WWII. Just imagine, all of us could`ve been saying "Sieg Heil!" and wearing swastikas on our shoulders today, was it not for the interference of those evil Americans. :blink:

[/b]

Dont be silly.......America had very little to do with the downfall of hitler.

reichstag9ve1.jpg


Thats at the top of the reichstag after the Soviet Union kicked Hitler's Arse proving once again dont invade Russia. ;)


As for the USA yes they do stick their noses in where its not needed often for their own narrow economic interests etc.
 
And of course, the Soviets only invaded Poland in 1939 and later then went all the way to occupy most of Eastern Europe out of the kindness of their hearts?

Come off it mate, they would have had the whole of Germany & Austria if they could get away with it. And apart from having two cities obliterated by A-Bombs, the other reason why Japan capitulated was because the Soviets were getting ready to invade Hokkaido and Northern Honshu. By the time Allied forces would invade the South of Japan, the Soviets would have probably been within 30 miles of Tokyo...

Everyone has alterior motives for what they do, don't go around thinking that the Soviets were somehow better than the USA for getting involved in the 2nd World War.
 
Glad to see some people know their history here! :p

As said before, the US has been dragged into WWII - the people didn't wanted to go, they were far way and not really concerned - and Roosevelt admitted that only a "dramatic event" could bring USA and the people to unite and be favorable to war = Pearl Harbor happened and we know what happened after that. The fact of the matter is Pearl Harbor hasn't been avoided - they knew what was coming, an hour before the attack, a Japaneses submarine was destroyed not far from Pearl Harbor, they had means to decrypt japanese coded transmitions, etc, etc - yet nothing has been done - doesn't it remind you 9/11? The German, English, French, Isreali, Italian secret services warned the US, they knew it was coming - but nope, I guess they needed a "dramatic event" to unite America and go to war... all this is documented, in Newspapers, books and what not - it right under our eyes!

If you want something ironic to read, have a look at the Patriot Act text - it is full of new disposition giving the Federal Government full power over an awful lot of things - they can search your house, listen and record your phone conversations and the list goes on... little by little, they take over liberties and control populations.

And that's the bottom line - take control on populations - most american don't know that their State Governments have been stripped away of their power - all power is concentrated at the Federal Government level - which basically mean, a handful of people have FULL authority on whatever happens socially, economically and juridically anywhere in the NAU (Northern American Union)... oh yeah, not a lot of people actually know the NAU - it has been signed a little while ago - it is basically joins Canada, USA and Mexico approximatively the same way than in the European Union - and has the people been consulted about this before they take a decision like that?

Read the news guys, it's all there, hidden under a mass of Gossip and glitters, but it's definitely there...
 
Wasn't there a conspiracy theory that Charles De Gaulle secretly backed the OAS and that it was some kind of ploy by De Gaulle in order to engineer a situation in which he could stay in power?
 
I don't have much info on this but it could be possible... now, the OAS tried several times to assassinate De Gaulle and the main motivations were because of De Gaulle offering the referedum on Algeria Independence.

What i found reading some stuff though is very interesting:

"Soustelle had been nominated governor-general of Algeria (1955-56) at the initiative of synarchist operative François Mitterrand â€"a leftover of the fascist, freemasonic organization called the Cagoule, and of the Vichy regimeâ€"who was then Interior Minister in Pierre Mendès-France's government. In France, the Ministry of Interior is the office of the Grand Inquisitor, the potential controller of a police state. It was from this government function that both Mitterrand and Soustelle became instrumental in launching the Algerian War, which coincided with the defeat of the French military at Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam, on March 13, 1954.

Mitterrand has been the French President for 14 years a while after this... just shows how people have a very short memory.

Now, i don't deny there could have been some kind of agreement between De Gaulle and the O.A.S, especially that one of the main guy of the OAS was part of De Gaulle's entourage - but some people say De Gaulle was also making a point of having his worst enemies as close to him as possible. everything is possible, especially in those spheres...

an other interesting reading on the subject:

De Gaulle & Bush
 
The Northern Ireland dispute was eventually solved because the IRA did have some form of chain of command, which eventually could be negotiated with and the disputes finally resolved.[/b]

You're an optimistic chap to think there's been a resolution. But I think Whitehall has managed to clear this one off its books - at the expense of the UK entity. If Scots independence follows, then you might have a final resolution because the opposing sides will be backed by equal hinterlands (Dublin and Edinburgh), without interference from London - but how likely is that when it will lead to the destruction of the Labour Party?

The IRA is an army, with an established chain of command, which was imitated by the Israelis in the 1940s. The IRA's British terror campaign in the 1970s-90s was carried out by a cell organisation, so that has a similarity with AQ. But the IRA also has a political party in Sinn Fein, which has spent over thirty years building an electoral base throughout Ireland, and that's what led to negotiations - AQ has nothing like that, and holds democracy in contempt.

And who needs a conspiracy theory to hold Washington politics in contempt? Read the list of contributors to the campaigns of federal parliamentarians - they are ruled by bankers! Bugger 9/11 and "Islamo-fascists" - the outrageous indebtedness of America and its citizens (and illegal immigrants) is a much greater danger to the values of the Founding Fathers. And Britain has a similar problem.
 
Top