Cricket Thread

[Larksea]

it is true, I think generally genuine fast bowlers have short or inconsistent injury interrupted carriers. Heck I think that's the story of a lot of even our promising medium pacers going back a long time.

140+ is really good pace already, if he was smart he should work on just maintaining that, ironing out kinks in his action that may increase the risk of injury. And working on accuracy, movement and seam position.

actually the thing that impressed me most about these last two games was the fact he had very good seam postion and did genuinely get some good movement. And he also produced a few good slower balls.

the hype has come from the speed but his figures in these games were from good bowling not necessarily fast bowling.

 

[james5000]

It was good to see us finish the West Indies series on a high, though if we weren't able to beat that (severely depleted) West Indies side I think there would have been some series questions asked!

Ronchi stepped up again - he has taken a while to look comfortable in the the Blackcaps, but looks like he could be a real asset in ODI and T20 cricket. The balance of the T20 side still doesn't seem right to me. I understand the need for allrounders in T20 cricket, but we are leaving ourselves short of bowling options. At the moment they are expecting Anderson to bowl 4 overs every match - while can do a job at times (e.g. the first T20) and other times (and against top opposition) he will go for a few. I think they need to include another specialist bowler at the expense probably Munro.

While I thought Milne was very impressive in both T20's I'm still worried about the hype surrounding this guy. Everyone seems completely obsessed with his pace. Every cricket headline read something along the lines of "Milne clocks 153km/h". His bowling figures seem secondary to the fact he is bowling fast (they weren't even mentioned in one article I read). Even the commentators seem preoccupied by his pace - instead of watching the deliveries they seem to just watch the speed-ball radar and get all excited when he hits 150km/h. Milne himself even seems a little preoccupied about his pace, stating one of his goals is to hit 160 km/h. Don't get me wrong, it is great that he is bowling fast, but you need to do more than just bowl fast to be successful in international cricket. There seems to be a big push to 'unleash him at test level', but I hope the selectors have a bit more sense. He has played a bit of first-class cricket so far this season and hasn't been overly effective, with 8 wicket in 4 matches at an average of 42. It was great to see him excel in the T20's, and it looks like he will get a crack in the ODI's against India, but I still want to see him playing more Plunket Shield cricket so he can learn how to take wickets in the longer form of the game.

In NZ we have only had 1 bowler capable of bowling 150 kmph before Milne in my lifetime (more than likely in our entire history actually). It's pretty pathetic really, so its no surprise the hype. The bloke is only 21, he's already been injured for much of his career. His figures at domestic level aren't super impressive but his potential is. He's only played a handful of games domestically any way and now he is showing potential internationally i see no point in him going back and slogging it out domestically. Our domestic competition is third rate any way. He will learn a great deal more playing limited overs cricket against the worlds best than some of our domestic mugs in the 3-4 day comp lol.

I totally believe his style of bowling (banging the ball in to the pitch, which he does tend to bowl too short imo) is more suited to the longer form of the game than twenty20 cricket where its asking for trouble giving the batsman leverage to tee off. He definitely needs to improve a great deal to be consistantly successful internationally.

I suppose what i am trying to say is these points:

*He is in the right place to develop in the NZ limited overs squads. He will learn a great deal more from the likes of Bond, Mills and Southee than he will playing in the plunket shield. He will learn more bowling to Kohli et al than he will from bowling to Aaron Redman.

*If he has success in the ODI's and Twenty20's he should be in the test squad regardless of his plunket shield form. Its obvious the level of ability required is much higher playing the reigning ODI World Champs than it is plying in the Plunket shield. If he takes a fair hammering in those ODI's and Twenty20's than it's not the end of the world they are the most feared batting line up in the world. He can still go to the Twenty20 world cup and have a crack. I just want to see a bit of perseverance with him. A bad series or two at this stage of his career isn't the end of the world. As long as he is showing the coaches a willingness to learn that should be enough. He is a weapon we need to develop because he has speed that can't be coached. If you could coach blokes to bowl 150 than everyone would be bowling that quickly.

*He does need to develop control but I hope he doesn't tone back the pace to achieve this. Pace is his big weapon at present, its basically the only reason he's in the team. If you look at his domestic record for sure its not even as good as Matt Henry or Bevan Small's but those blokes struggle to bowl 140 let alone 150. We have 4 bowlers in Southee, Boult, Bracewell and Wagner who are much more proven than Henry and Small and with a smiliar bowling style i can't see them getting a crack for a while yet.

Also: I actually don't have too much of a problem with the balance of our twenty20 team especially as the twenty20 world cup is in Bangladesh. Munro seems to be one of our more capable batsman against spin bowling so he's a must in Bangladesh. His bowling may be more effective as well. Jesse Ryder should be bowling more IMO.

 

[james5000]

it is true, I think generally genuine fast bowlers have short or inconsistent injury interrupted carriers. Heck I think that's the story of a lot of even our promising medium pacers going back a long time.

140+ is really good pace already, if he was smart he should work on just maintaining that, ironing out kinks in his action that may increase the risk of injury. And working on accuracy, movement and seam position.

actually the thing that impressed me most about these last two games was the fact he had very good seam postion and did genuinely get some good movement. And he also produced a few good slower balls.

the hype has come from the speed but his figures in these games were from good bowling not necessarily fast bowling.

I agree with this

 

[Darwin]

In NZ we have only had 1 bowler capable of bowling 150 kmph before Milne in my lifetime (more than likely in our entire history actually). It's pretty pathetic really, so its no surprise the hype. The bloke is only 21, he's already been injured for much of his career. His figures at domestic level aren't super impressive but his potential is. He's only played a handful of games domestically any way and now he is showing potential internationally i see no point in him going back and slogging it out domestically. Our domestic competition is third rate any way. He will learn a great deal more playing limited overs cricket against the worlds best than some of our domestic mugs in the 3-4 day comp lol.

I totally believe his style of bowling (banging the ball in to the pitch, which he does tend to bowl too short imo) is more suited to the longer form of the game than twenty20 cricket where its asking for trouble giving the batsman leverage to tee off. He definitely needs to improve a great deal to be consistantly successful internationally.

I suppose what i am trying to say is these points:

*He is in the right place to develop in the NZ limited overs squads. He will learn a great deal more from the likes of Bond, Mills and Southee than he will playing in the plunket shield. He will learn more bowling to Kohli et al than he will from bowling to Aaron Redman.

*If he has success in the ODI's and Twenty20's he should be in the test squad regardless of his plunket shield form. Its obvious the level of ability required is much higher playing the reigning ODI World Champs than it is plying in the Plunket shield. If he takes a fair hammering in those ODI's and Twenty20's than it's not the end of the world they are the most feared batting line up in the world. He can still go to the Twenty20 world cup and have a crack. I just want to see a bit of perseverance with him. A bad series or two at this stage of his career isn't the end of the world. As long as he is showing the coaches a willingness to learn that should be enough. He is a weapon we need to develop because he has speed that can't be coached. If you could coach blokes to bowl 150 than everyone would be bowling that quickly.

*He does need to develop control but I hope he doesn't tone back the pace to achieve this. Pace is his big weapon at present, its basically the only reason he's in the team. If you look at his domestic record for sure its not even as good as Matt Henry or Bevan Small's but those blokes struggle to bowl 140 let alone 150. We have 4 bowlers in Southee, Boult, Bracewell and Wagner who are much more proven than Henry and Small and with a smiliar bowling style i can't see them getting a crack for a while yet.

Also: I actually don't have too much of a problem with the balance of our twenty20 team especially as the twenty20 world cup is in Bangladesh. Munro seems to be one of our more capable batsman against spin bowling so he's a must in Bangladesh. His bowling may be more effective as well. Jesse Ryder should be bowling more IMO.

I don't think this is technically correct. We haven't had many pace bowlers capable of hitting 150 kph playing for New Zealand, but we have had more than a few domestic bowlers capable of bowling this quick (and indeed even have some playing domestic cricket right now!). We certainly don't produce as many of these types of bowlers as many other countries (due to our limited cricketing population), but we do produce them. If I go back a few years (not too many) Heath Davis was pretty rapid. Speed guns weren't regularly in use back then, but I would be surprised if he wasn't capable of bowling 150+ kph. Unfortunately he was horribly inaccurate, and had real issues with no-balls. When Ian Butler hit the scene he regularly bowled in the mid 140's in limited overs cricket, and was capable of bowling 150kph. A series of very serious injuries meant he had to completely change his action his action, and never been near as quick. Richard Sherlock was very rapid (capable of 150kph+) when he debuted for CD (10 years ago), but injuries have ruined his career. Mitch McLenaghan would have bowled close to 150kph before he was forced to remodel his action after injury. Te Ahu Davis was very quick (if erratic). Milnes CD team-mate Andrew Mathieson is very fast, and considered to be just as quick as Milne.

My point is simply that pace alone doesn't guarantee you success in NZ cricket. Indeed the vast majority of our genuinely fast bowlers have had serious injuries - Shane Bond himself only managed 18 tests! What worries me is that many NZ cricket fans seem excited by Milne solely because of his pace. What was impressive about Milne's two T20 performances was his accuracy (at pace), and (as Larksea mentioned) his impressive seam positioning and variation.

I'm not suggesting he should go back to Plunket Shield cricket immediately. He has done enough to be included in the ODI side to play India, and I'm sure he will learn a lot there. However once these ODI's are over he should go back and play for CD, as there is no way he is ready for Test cricket. Test cricket and limited overs cricket are very different, and require bowlers with very different skill-sets. Milne may be able to bowl the odd 150kph delivery at limited overs cricket, but maintaining this sort of pace over a entire day is another story altogether! Milne's style of bowling is far better suited to limited overs cricket at this stage, as he really only bowls two main deliveries - the yorker and the bouncer. If you watch him play first class cricket you will see he really lacks the stock delivery he needs to be successful at test level. He needs to be able to build pressure on good batsmen - he still struggles to get our (3rd rate) domestic batsmen out, so I can't see how he is going to get the likes of Pujara, Kohli etc. This is not to say he won't develop into a good first class bowler, but the only way he can learn how to do this is to play first class cricket, and a test series versus India is not the best place to be learning!

In terms of the T20 side: In T20 cricket you need either wicket taking bowlers or bowlers that can get through their overs very economically (preferably both). Anderson fits neither of these categories. He is a very solid part time bowler, but their is no way he should be required to bowl his full compliment of overs every match. He can bowl good line and length, but he has limited variation and lacks a good yorker - top sides could completely take him apart. Ryder could fill in the odd over, but using part time bowlers such as Ryder is hardly ideal. God help us if we ever have to bowl Colin Munro. Having a few allrounders is handy, but Neesham at 8 and McCullum at 9 are largely obsolete in T20 cricket. If you are going to win a T20 match the vast majority of your runs should come from your top 5 or 6 batsmen. If Neesham is in the side he needs to be batting in the top 6/7 - if he is batting at 8 he is basically in the side as a bowler (as your number 8 shouldn't be doing a lot of batting in T20 cricket), and there are better bowling options than him.

Most successful T20 sides have at least 6 genuine bowling options. At the moment we have 5, and Anderson isn't really a great bowler. Having more options allows the captain to rotate the bowlers more, use different bowlers depending on pitch conditions, and stop bowling bowlers if they are having a poor day. If we were to include another specialist bowler (at the expense of a specialist batsman) this would give us 6 genuine bowling options, and with Neesham at 7 and N McCullum at 8 we are still going to have a very deep batting lineup. Ideally the extra bowler would be a spinner (especially for Bangladesh conditions). If Vettori was fit he would be the ideal option, but at this stage it looks unlikely. Ronnie Hira is probably next in line - he is an excellent fielder too, but I don't think he has been in great form. The form T20 spinner is probably Jono Boult, but he is unlikely to come into contention. Because of our need for another spin bowler both Kane Williamson and Anton Devcich will come into contention. Williamson isn't that suited to T20 cricket, but he batted very well for ND today, is a very good player of spin, and his spin bowling can be very economical at times. Between Milne, McClenaghan, Southee, Neesham, Mills, and possibly Boult we have plenty of pace bowling options.

 

[james5000]

I don't think this is technically correct. We haven't had many pace bowlers capable of hitting 150 kph playing for New Zealand, but we have had more than a few domestic bowlers capable of bowling this quick (and indeed even have some playing domestic cricket right now!). We certainly don't produce as many of these types of bowlers as many other countries (due to our limited cricketing population), but we do produce them. If I go back a few years (not too many) Heath Davis was pretty rapid. Speed guns weren't regularly in use back then, but I would be surprised if he wasn't capable of bowling 150+ kph. Unfortunately he was horribly inaccurate, and had real issues with no-balls. When Ian Butler hit the scene he regularly bowled in the mid 140's in limited overs cricket, and was capable of bowling 150kph. A series of very serious injuries meant he had to completely change his action his action, and never been near as quick. Richard Sherlock was very rapid (capable of 150kph+) when he debuted for CD (10 years ago), but injuries have ruined his career. Mitch McLenaghan would have bowled close to 150kph before he was forced to remodel his action after injury. Te Ahu Davis was very quick (if erratic). Milnes CD team-mate Andrew Mathieson is very fast, and considered to be just as quick as Milne.

My point is simply that pace alone doesn't guarantee you success in NZ cricket. Indeed the vast majority of our genuinely fast bowlers have had serious injuries - Shane Bond himself only managed 18 tests! What worries me is that many NZ cricket fans seem excited by Milne solely because of his pace. What was impressive about Milne's two T20 performances was his accuracy (at pace), and (as Larksea mentioned) his impressive seam positioning and variation.

I'm not suggesting he should go back to Plunket Shield cricket immediately. He has done enough to be included in the ODI side to play India, and I'm sure he will learn a lot there. However once these ODI's are over he should go back and play for CD, as there is no way he is ready for Test cricket. Test cricket and limited overs cricket are very different, and require bowlers with very different skill-sets. Milne may be able to bowl the odd 150kph delivery at limited overs cricket, but maintaining this sort of pace over a entire day is another story altogether! Milne's style of bowling is far better suited to limited overs cricket at this stage, as he really only bowls two main deliveries - the yorker and the bouncer. If you watch him play first class cricket you will see he really lacks the stock delivery he needs to be successful at test level. He needs to be able to build pressure on good batsmen - he still struggles to get our (3rd rate) domestic batsmen out, so I can't see how he is going to get the likes of Pujara, Kohli etc. This is not to say he won't develop into a good first class bowler, but the only way he can learn how to do this is to play first class cricket, and a test series versus India is not the best place to be learning!

In terms of the T20 side: In T20 cricket you need either wicket taking bowlers or bowlers that can get through their overs very economically (preferably both). Anderson fits neither of these categories. He is a very solid part time bowler, but their is no way he should be required to bowl his full compliment of overs every match. He can bowl good line and length, but he has limited variation and lacks a good yorker - top sides could completely take him apart. Ryder could fill in the odd over, but using part time bowlers such as Ryder is hardly ideal. God help us if we ever have to bowl Colin Munro. Having a few allrounders is handy, but Neesham at 8 and McCullum at 9 are largely obsolete in T20 cricket. If you are going to win a T20 match the vast majority of your runs should come from your top 5 or 6 batsmen. If Neesham is in the side he needs to be batting in the top 6/7 - if he is batting at 8 he is basically in the side as a bowler (as your number 8 shouldn't be doing a lot of batting in T20 cricket), and there are better bowling options than him.

Most successful T20 sides have at least 6 genuine bowling options. At the moment we have 5, and Anderson isn't really a great bowler. Having more options allows the captain to rotate the bowlers more, use different bowlers depending on pitch conditions, and stop bowling bowlers if they are having a poor day. If we were to include another specialist bowler (at the expense of a specialist batsman) this would give us 6 genuine bowling options, and with Neesham at 7 and N McCullum at 8 we are still going to have a very deep batting lineup. Ideally the extra bowler would be a spinner (especially for Bangladesh conditions). If Vettori was fit he would be the ideal option, but at this stage it looks unlikely. Ronnie Hira is probably next in line - he is an excellent fielder too, but I don't think he has been in great form. The form T20 spinner is probably Jono Boult, but he is unlikely to come into contention. Because of our need for another spin bowler both Kane Williamson and Anton Devcich will come into contention. Williamson isn't that suited to T20 cricket, but he batted very well for ND today, is a very good player of spin, and his spin bowling can be very economical at times. Between Milne, McClenaghan, Southee, Neesham, Mills, and possibly Boult we have plenty of pace bowling options.

I could name a few more players to add to your list
Gary Bartlett
Young Richard Hadlee
Brendon Bracewell
Murphy Su'a
Carl Bulfin
Geoff Allott
Andre Adams with a long run up
Andy McKay
Hamish Bennett

All of those blokes we both named have one thing in common, not a single one of them has been clocked at 150kmph, I like to call them the urban legends of NZ cricket.
Ian Butler and McKay both nudged 146-147 in their primes but not the magic 150kmph. McClenaghan, Sherlock and the Davis boys were never on the gun in their primes but when Heath, McClenaghan and Sherlock have been clocked they have been nowhere near 150kmph not really that close to 145kmph. McClenaghan still talks about running in and trying to bowl as fast as he can, the quickest ive seen him get is about 143kmph.

I would be super surprised if any of those guys have hit 150kmph, and I have actually seen Andrew Mathieson bowl and he isn't quicker than Hamish Bennett who i would rate consistantly the 2nd quickest in the country at the moment. Bennett at his peak is 145kmph region, much slower than Milne. Have you seen Mathieson bowl?

I get your point that pace will not guarentee success internationally but it will get you in to the black caps injury permitting. Te Ahu Davis and Sherlock really didn't play much cricket at FC level thats how sad their injuries were.

Milnes FC record isn't actually that bad to be fair he averages less than 30 in plunket shield which isn't terrible it just doesn't demand selection in to the Black Caps. He debuted in 2010 and he's only played 12 FC games which shows you how much his career has been interrupted. These figures in this link here
(http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=5;id=2013;team=2591;type=year) will tell you why Milne is ahead of Henry at the moment. I kind of think you're understating his Plunket Shield stats based on this years figures which he hasn't been fully fit in. He's actually struggled to stay on the park his whole career so far, so its no surprise he only averages 29 which is actually decent but not great.

Milnes main delievery he bowls which is 90% of the time is just short of a good length (see this video,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51CGAU_RQ7o) i'd be much happier with him if he just bowled yorkers and bouncers in limted overs games. Waqar Younis had a great career doing it, and so have many others like Mitchell Johnson). In T20 its very risky bowling in the region he bowls because the batsman can get under the ball and use the pace of it. In test cricket it can be quite effective on quick decks to bowl short as the batsman are usually more defensive, especially batsman who are used to slow decks. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have more strings to his bow though the ability to bowl full and swing the ball is just as important because it will make him more effective on more pitches. He's definitely not the complete package he's got rough edges he needs to smooth out but hopefully there's a diamond finish

I want him to be aggresive and bowl as quickly as possible (ala Johnson). Pitching the ball up a bit more at times and using his swing would be ideal. If he needs to drop his pace to deliver line and length than i totally think he's better off just being wild and woolley as he will become just another average NZ seamer. If we want to improve as a cricket nation we need a weapon, he has potential to be that weapon like his mentor Shane Bond was.

I reckon if he has real success against the Indian's in the limited overs, why not give him a crack in the tests? especially if he troubles some of their key batsman? I know you think fc cricket is important but international limited overs success is more important IMO. Especially when you compare it to NZ's FC cricket.

As for the twenty20 team I can understand the merit in your thoughts and if Munro (and Anderson for that matter) doesn't start scoring more runs I will agree with you. Neesham and Nathan McCullum are both in the team as bowlers though, the fact that they can score runs on occassions is a secondary bonus. McCullum is actually one of the premier t20 bowlers in the world, Neesham is quite a golden arm and has been one of the best death bowlers domestically helping Otago to a solid winning streak. Anderson is trying hard to be that 5th bowling option so they are giving him a decent chance to earn it. I still think Ryder is capable of rolling his arm over for a couple in the middle of the innings. We will have to see how consistant Monro can become, I'm kind of backing him to come good eventually.

 

[Larksea]

bloody great victory last night it is true this is the biggest result for NZ for some time beating the world champions. the had gone through a real ODI slump

Milne did pick up an injury but I thought he bowled quite well again, fastest ball up at 153 and he did catch the batsmen playing late a lot just beating them a bit for speed.

I think Williamson should be used more, he showed he probably should be used more. Hes not been used recently but I definitely think hes one of those bowlers you give 3 overs and if he does well you give him some more.

McClenaghan ended up getting 4, I didn't think he bowled very well but he pulled one good over out of the bag and got two then got another in his next over and that really sealed the match.

Was actually a really good all round effort including fielding, all bowlers did well, southee in particular and he fielded brilliantly its actually quite mind blowing that the bowling spearhead is also one of the best fielders, important batting contributions from Anderson, Williamson, Taylor, McCallum and Ronchi. Kinda waiting for Ryder to come off again he looks likely, smashed a 6 and got done by a good ball.

For india Koli was pretty awesome, crazy the commentators spitting out all these crazy stats about how Doni and Koli chase in ODI's, this will be the first game india have lost with Koli scoring a ton chasing.

 

[james5000]

I just wrote something before and it didn't post properly. but the jist of it was

I feel sorry for Milne getting the injury but it is common with quick bowlers, I hope he can bounce back quickly.
Batting was very good at times, Williamson and Taylor set it up well, with Anderson and Ronchi making a good impact near the end. We probably should have scored a few more though as the Indian's pegged us back at the end with good bowling.

I thought Milne was good and the Pace was exciting to see. I don't think he attacked enough though, and he could learn a bit about attacking from McClenaghan.

McClenaghan may not be quick but he's exciting to watch in his own way. He knows his role is to take wickets and this at times can be at the expense of conceeding run's. He went for plenty last night and bowled a few bad balls but thats because he's a real tryer, he mixes it up well and gets in the batsman's face.

I do have a little critisism of Milne as I see his role in the side as similar to McClenaghan's. Get nasty and take wickets. He should be more intimidating than McClenaghan as he's much quicker.
Milne bowled in his usual channel and didn't really attack much apart from a few bouncers most of which were ineffective because they were too short and ballooned well above the batsman. He did get one on target and got a wicket with it. He did bowl a couple deliveries that beat Kohli and Dhoni. I know Darwin talked about him being a yorker/bouncer baller but he hasn't bowled a yorker this year so far in the internationals. The yorker is a staple for the real quicks, if you can add a bit of inswing and they can become near unplayable. I want him to mix it up more, bowl a few full balls and we might see some swing.
He tends to bowl back of a length to a good length which is generally too short to see any swing. Its more favourable for bounce, and Napiers wicket didn't have a great deal of bounce in it.
His stock delivery is ok especially to batsman who don't like bounce, but when you don't mix it up you can become predictable. Milne needs to make the batsman think, and I think they had him sussed out last night.

To be honest I think he looks like he's lacking a bit of confidence and thats why he's not mixing it up more. I don't think he backs his ability yet and he's probably a bit scared of doing a Heath Davis. With a bit of experience and hopefully a injury free run I'm sure he will get a bit of confidence and we will see a better version of him.

On a positive note boy was he quick. I'm sure he's quicker than Bond (on average atleast) and he should probably get quicker with time, you would hope anyway. He was bowling on a flat deck to mostly an inform Kohli and he didn't do too badly I reckon. He did rush the batsman a bit, give him more favourable conditions and we might see a better result. He also took 70 runs off his average!

 

[Larksea]

I dunno, I think if you bowl 150km/h line and length the batsman has to play eventually they will get it wrong.

generally I thought NZ bowlers bowled well but there were too many bouncers going wide over the batsmens head. can see the short ball is going to be of use against the Indians but it needs to be well directed

 

[james5000]

I dunno, I think if you bowl 150km/h line and length the batsman has to play eventually they will get it wrong.

generally I thought NZ bowlers bowled well but there were too many bouncers going wide over the batsmens head. can see the short ball is going to be of use against the Indians but it needs to be well directed

I agree it can be effective but it was getting picked off fairly easily last night and line and length is most effective when batsman aren't scoring and pressure is building. The Indian's were playing him really well and he really needed to atleast try to make them make a mistake rather than just hope they make a mistake. Milnes job is to take wickets not be economical, which line and length bowlers should be (he actually wasn't really economical any way).

I remember a few times Milne got hit for a boundary off the first ball of the over (they weren't bad balls but really good cricket strokes) and it felt like he was just hoping not to get hit for another boundary for the rest of the over. Just my opinion though

 

[Larksea]

its normal to have good balls hit to the fence, it takes experience to not let it get to you and stick to the plan and realize the batter took a risk and if you stick to the plan they will have to keep taking risks.

I thought it was good where a couple of his overs where the first ball went for 4 he managed to keep focused, keep to a plan and minimize the damage. and only go for 7-8 total from the over or not give away another boundary in the over.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

I like the look of New Zealand's bowlers. Southee and Boult a great, but I really like the look of mcclenaghan, he really brings an edge to the pace attack

 

[Amobokoboko]

That match was a beauty. I had my reservations to it when Ryder dropped Kohli. Immense game

 

[Larksea]

when that hit went straight up my first thought was it was going to be dropped, then when I saw ryder under it I thought well at least a good fielder is under it we have a chance but no, they are the hardest catches to get it just went too high. Once it goes above the lights at night time the chances of a catch drop big time.

I wonder if boult is in consideration at all for these ODIs, hes accurate and has enough variation plus he can bat hes not far off a genuine all rounder. I wondered if they may rotate him in and rest one of the others. Talk is that Mills will come in for Milne. Maybe they want to keep Boult dry for the tests.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I dunno, I think if you bowl 150km/h line and length the batsman has to play eventually they will get it wrong.

generally I thought NZ bowlers bowled well but there were too many bouncers going wide over the batsmens head. can see the short ball is going to be of use against the Indians but it needs to be well directed

The sky commentators made a good point about that, these guys have just spent two months playing against 6 foot plus West Indians and now they're playing 5 foot something Indians...really need to get that length sorted, some of those the batsmen weren't even ducking!...in saying that, i loved seeing some ruthless bowling..."yeah, i'm going to take your head off...just to rattle you a little"

 

[smartcooky]

I think Kane Williamson is underrated as a part-time ODI bowler; he breaks partnerships and only goes for about 5 an over. IMO, he's always worth a go when the opposition batting looks like they are getting on top.

Also, hasn't Southee's fielding come on in recent times. I can remember when we used to try to hide him in the outfield, and this weekend, he takes three outfield catches, two of them superb efforts that were definitely worthy of a Richie "Marvellous catch that!" award.

 

[Darwin]

I could name a few more players to add to your list
Gary Bartlett
Young Richard Hadlee
Brendon Bracewell
Murphy Su'a
Carl Bulfin
Geoff Allott
Andre Adams with a long run up
Andy McKay
Hamish Bennett

All of those blokes we both named have one thing in common, not a single one of them has been clocked at 150kmph, I like to call them the urban legends of NZ cricket.
Ian Butler and McKay both nudged 146-147 in their primes but not the magic 150kmph. McClenaghan, Sherlock and the Davis boys were never on the gun in their primes but when Heath, McClenaghan and Sherlock have been clocked they have been nowhere near 150kmph not really that close to 145kmph. McClenaghan still talks about running in and trying to bowl as fast as he can, the quickest ive seen him get is about 143kmph.

I would be super surprised if any of those guys have hit 150kmph, and I have actually seen Andrew Mathieson bowl and he isn't quicker than Hamish Bennett who i would rate consistantly the 2nd quickest in the country at the moment. Bennett at his peak is 145kmph region, much slower than Milne. Have you seen Mathieson bowl?

I don't want to go too much into whether other NZ bowlers have topped 150 km/h (as it is not really the point), but I'm very confident that more than just Bond and Milne have topped this mark. Speedball radars have only regularly been in use at international level for 5-10 years? In that time we have seen Bond and Milne top 150km/h, but the likes of Gillespie, MacKay, and even Chris Martin have got very close to that mark on occasion. I can't remember exact numbers, but I think each has hit 147-148 km/h at some stage in their international careers. Trent Boult has managed to crack it up into the mid 140's on occasion. I don't think it is a big stretch to suggest that their have been faster bowlers domestically than Gillespie, MacKay and Chris Martin - these bowlers were all considered quick in their primes, but not the quickest bowlers on the domestic circuit.

It is difficult to get footage of actual bowling speeds, but I distinctly remember Ian Butler clocking over 150 km/h early in his careers (perhaps in India as this article suggests he did). Richard Sherlock was considered to be at least as quick as Bond, and apparently was clocking over 150km/h on an early NZ A tour to South Africa . Mathison (who I have only seen bowl a couple of times) was clocked in the mid-140s (along with Anurag Verma) when bowling in the nets a couple of years ago, and people I know who have seen a lot of him reckon he can bowl quicker than that now. Scott Kuggeleijn may be capable of getting close to 150 km/h now too - he was clocked at almost 140km/h as a 16 year-old, and was considered the fastest bowler in the Wellington side that included Mark Gillespie and Andy MacKay a couple of years ago.

In any case all that is not really relevant. I think we can agree that (regardless of whether other NZ bowlers have topped 150km/h) Adam Milne is quick. Real quick. Undoubtedly among the quickest bowlers we have ever produced. I just don't think that pace alone should justify him selection at test level. I'm not suggesting he should slow down a bit and get more accurate - far from it - his pace is what sets him apart from others, and it can be a real weapon if used properly. I just think he needs to play more first class cricket and work out how to take wickets at that level before being thrust into the test arena. One of the major questions with Milne (apart from whether his body will hold together) is whether he is able to maintain pace throughout a day (and indeed an entire first class match). It is all well and good to steam in and bowl 150 km/h for a couple of overs, but there is no way he will be able to bowl near that quick in his 20th over of the day. Some real quick bowlers drop their pace quite dramatically as the day wears on. I haven't seen enough of Milne to know whether this is the case, but I suspect if Wagner and Milne bowled 20 overs each by the end of the day Wagner would be bowling quicker than Milne.

I get your point that pace will not guarentee success internationally but it will get you in to the black caps injury permitting. Te Ahu Davis and Sherlock really didn't play much cricket at FC level thats how sad their injuries were.

Milnes FC record isn't actually that bad to be fair he averages less than 30 in plunket shield which isn't terrible it just doesn't demand selection in to the Black Caps. He debuted in 2010 and he's only played 12 FC games which shows you how much his career has been interrupted. These figures in this link here
(http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?class=5;id=2013;team=2591;type=year) will tell you why Milne is ahead of Henry at the moment. I kind of think you're understating his Plunket Shield stats based on this years figures which he hasn't been fully fit in. He's actually struggled to stay on the park his whole career so far, so its no surprise he only averages 29 which is actually decent but not great.

As you say overall Milne's FC record isn't bad (39 wickets @ 31 in 13 matches), but is hardly outstanding. His stats from this years comp are very valid - he has probably played as much Plunket Shield cricket this season as he has before! The link you provided (to he list A averages for NZ A players in 2013) shows why Milne is ahead of Henry in limited overs cricket. Again I must emphasize that bowling in cricket 4/5 day cricket and limited overs cricket is very different. In any case the debate is not whether he is a better test option than Henry, it is whether Milne should have be thrust straight into the test side. He would not be competing with Henry for that spot, but rather Wagner, Bracewell, and probably Bennett. Personally I think he is still behind these three until he proves he can regularly take wickets at First Class level.

I want him to be aggresive and bowl as quickly as possible (ala Johnson). Pitching the ball up a bit more at times and using his swing would be ideal. If he needs to drop his pace to deliver line and length than i totally think he's better off just being wild and woolley as he will become just another average NZ seamer. If we want to improve as a cricket nation we need a weapon, he has potential to be that weapon like his mentor Shane Bond was.

I agree entirely with this. I just hope his body is able to cope with it!

Anyways.... I was very disappointed in the way we butchered our last ODI - we have obviously been taking tips from the English cricket side. Not only did we miss numerous opportunities in the field (stumpings, run-outs, catches), but our bowling at the death was pathetic. Seriously who thought it would be a good tactic to bowl every delivery short of a length and give the Indian batsman a chance to swing it wherever they wanted? Not only that but we continued to get called for wides for height - we were just giving them free runs at the end. If we want to be competitive next years world cup we need to find someone as well as Southee who can bowl yorkers..

Todays match looks like it may go down to the wire too. Hopefully we are able to win this one and seal the series....

EDIT: pretty comfortable win for NZ in the end. Great batting by Williamson and Taylor, and it was good to see McCullum back in the runs...

 

[Larksea]

yeah pretty astonishing series, was crazy to see NZ let India get a draw from such a dominant position. they were also very unlucky with Jadeja(sp) getting away with a clear and obvious caught behind. If it was given and it should have been NZ would have easily won.

But this last game was dominant, Southee and Mills bowled superbly and Nathan Mc supported them really well, then to get the runs needed with almost 2 overs to spare only three wickets down. That is a dominant victory.

Ive always thought Williamson has the potential to evolve into a world class batsman, the kind of player NZ desperately needs and it seems he really is fast becoming just that. 4 games, 4 good half centuries and what he has done each time is stabilize the middle stage of the innings and allowed a platform to be set for the mid and lower order hitters to unleash later on.

NZ openers have been getting out but they have been scoring runs quickly and not letting the run rate get away.

I really like the look of Nesham I think he can develop into a good player with more experience, I would be happy to see Anderson come back in and Nesham stay in Bennetts place then select your specialist bowlers depending on the pitch and player condition.

and with a bit of experience we wont see that run out blunder minties moment as often hehe

 

[james5000]

I don't want to go too much into whether other NZ bowlers have topped 150 km/h (as it is not really the point), but I'm very confident that more than just Bond and Milne have topped this mark. Speedball radars have only regularly been in use at international level for 5-10 years? In that time we have seen Bond and Milne top 150km/h, but the likes of Gillespie, MacKay, and even Chris Martin have got very close to that mark on occasion. I can't remember exact numbers, but I think each has hit 147-148 km/h at some stage in their international careers. Trent Boult has managed to crack it up into the mid 140's on occasion. I don't think it is a big stretch to suggest that their have been faster bowlers domestically than Gillespie, MacKay and Chris Martin - these bowlers were all considered quick in their primes, but not the quickest bowlers on the domestic circuit.

It is difficult to get footage of actual bowling speeds, but I distinctly remember Ian Butler clocking over 150 km/h early in his careers (perhaps in India as this article suggests he did). Richard Sherlock was considered to be at least as quick as Bond, and apparently was clocking over 150km/h on an early NZ A tour to South Africa . Mathison (who I have only seen bowl a couple of times) was clocked in the mid-140s (along with Anurag Verma) when bowling in the nets a couple of years ago, and people I know who have seen a lot of him reckon he can bowl quicker than that now. Scott Kuggeleijn may be capable of getting close to 150 km/h now too - he was clocked at almost 140km/h as a 16 year-old, and was considered the fastest bowler in the Wellington side that included Mark Gillespie and Andy MacKay a couple of years ago.

In any case all that is not really relevant. I think we can agree that (regardless of whether other NZ bowlers have topped 150km/h) Adam Milne is quick. Real quick. Undoubtedly among the quickest bowlers we have ever produced. I just don't think that pace alone should justify him selection at test level. I'm not suggesting he should slow down a bit and get more accurate - far from it - his pace is what sets him apart from others, and it can be a real weapon if used properly. I just think he needs to play more first class cricket and work out how to take wickets at that level before being thrust into the test arena. One of the major questions with Milne (apart from whether his body will hold together) is whether he is able to maintain pace throughout a day (and indeed an entire first class match). It is all well and good to steam in and bowl 150 km/h for a couple of overs, but there is no way he will be able to bowl near that quick in his 20th over of the day. Some real quick bowlers drop their pace quite dramatically as the day wears on. I haven't seen enough of Milne to know whether this is the case, but I suspect if Wagner and Milne bowled 20 overs each by the end of the day Wagner would be bowling quicker than Milne.



As you say overall Milne's FC record isn't bad (39 wickets @ 31 in 13 matches), but is hardly outstanding. His stats from this years comp are very valid - he has probably played as much Plunket Shield cricket this season as he has before! The link you provided (to he list A averages for NZ A players in 2013) shows why Milne is ahead of Henry in limited overs cricket. Again I must emphasize that bowling in cricket 4/5 day cricket and limited overs cricket is very different. In any case the debate is not whether he is a better test option than Henry, it is whether Milne should have be thrust straight into the test side. He would not be competing with Henry for that spot, but rather Wagner, Bracewell, and probably Bennett. Personally I think he is still behind these three until he proves he can regularly take wickets at First Class level.




I agree entirely with this. I just hope his body is able to cope with it!

Anyways.... I was very disappointed in the way we butchered our last ODI - we have obviously been taking tips from the English cricket side. Not only did we miss numerous opportunities in the field (stumpings, run-outs, catches), but our bowling at the death was pathetic. Seriously who thought it would be a good tactic to bowl every delivery short of a length and give the Indian batsman a chance to swing it wherever they wanted? Not only that but we continued to get called for wides for height - we were just giving them free runs at the end. If we want to be competitive next years world cup we need to find someone as well as Southee who can bowl yorkers..

Todays match looks like it may go down to the wire too. Hopefully we are able to win this one and seal the series....

EDIT: pretty comfortable win for NZ in the end. Great batting by Williamson and Taylor, and it was good to see McCullum back in the runs...

Scotty Kuggs bowling 150kmph with Mathieson and Milne in tow, now that would be epic lol. (Is this the same Kugs that is basically a Jimmy Neesham clone?). Wagner is basically Corey Anderson at the end of a test day. He has heart but he doesn't have fast twitch muscle so if Milne could last 20 overs i'd say no way would he bowl slower than Anderson/Wagner.

I still believe international limited overs cricket or more specific ODI's are of more significance to selecting a test team than our poor Domestic Comp. Milne could have forced his way in with a good bowling performance against the Indians (especially considering how poor our other bowlers have been). You just have to look over the ditch to see how many Aussies have forced their way in to their test side through ODI form. David Warner being a prime example. He couldn't even get a gig with his state side and he's one of the premier test openers in the world at the moment. Milne's domestic record has such a small sample size that you would be picking him on potential more than anything else. Still its a hell of a lot more potential than anyone I have seen in domestic cricket.

*There could have (still could be) been room to play 4 quick bowlers against the Indian's so Wagners place could have been safe any way. The Indian's are great players of spin bowling and I'd be inclined to drop Sodhi.

 

[Darwin]

Scotty Kuggs bowling 150kmph with Mathieson and Milne in tow, now that would be epic lol. (Is this the same Kugs that is basically a Jimmy Neesham clone?). Wagner is basically Corey Anderson at the end of a test day. He has heart but he doesn't have fast twitch muscle so if Milne could last 20 overs i'd say no way would he bowl slower than Anderson/Wagner.

Have you watched Milne play first-class cricket? In the few games I have seen him play he has always looked very dangerous at the start of the day, but as he has bowled more overs teams start to play him very comfortably. Obviously their is no speedball radars at these matches, but this suggests to me that his pace drops pretty dramatically as the day progresses. You only have to recall the 1st ODI versus India where we saw his average pace drop from close to 150km/h in his first spell down to around 140km/h in subsequent spells. Wagner is obviously still slower than this, but one of the good things about him is that he keeps his pace the whole day - in fact sometimes he actually bowlers quicker as the day progresses (as it seems to take him a long time to find his rhythm).

I still believe international limited overs cricket or more specific ODI's are of more significance to selecting a test team than our poor Domestic Comp. Milne could have forced his way in with a good bowling performance against the Indians (especially considering how poor our other bowlers have been). You just have to look over the ditch to see how many Aussies have forced their way in to their test side through ODI form. David Warner being a prime example. He couldn't even get a gig with his state side and he's one of the premier test openers in the world at the moment. Milne's domestic record has such a small sample size that you would be picking him on potential more than anything else. Still its a hell of a lot more potential than anyone I have seen in domestic cricket.

NZ Test squad bowlers: Boult, Southee, Wagner, Bracewell, Sodhi.
NZ ODI squad bowlers: Mills, Southee, N McCullum, Bennett, Milne, McClenaghan.

What do these two lists have in common? One player (Tim Southee). This suggests to me bowling in test cricket and ODI cricket are very different! New Zealand are far from the only side where this is the case - if we look across the ditch only one bowler (Mitch Johnson) regularly plays in both test and ODI cricket for Australia. Just because a bowler excels in one form of the game doesn't mean they should automatically be selected for the other form of the game.

The situation is slightly different for batsmen, but the same generally principal applies. The example you gave was Dave Warner, which I don't think was a very good example. Warner hadn't played much first class cricket (10 matches) before he was picked for the test side, but he wasn't picked purely on ODI form. He was picked because he displayed outstanding form in the few first class matches he had played. He averaged 60 in first-class cricket in the these 10 matches, and in the 6 first-class matches he played in 2011 he had scored 764 runs at an average of 76 with 3 centuries (http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/90/90182/First-Class_Matches.html). I'm sure his strong ODI form would have played a role in selection, but his first-class form alone would have given him a strong claim for selection! A better example of picking a played for test cricket based on ODI form would be George Bailey, and I think we know how that turned out. I'm not saying ODI form should not be taken into consideration - of course it should - but it shouldn't be the main criteria for test selection.

*There could have (still could be) been room to play 4 quick bowlers against the Indian's so Wagners place could have been safe any way. The Indian's are great players of spin bowling and I'd be inclined to drop Sodhi.

Personally I would be picking four quick bowlers against India. The pitch conditions are generally unsuitable for spin, and Sodhi is still nowhere near ready for test cricket. I can't see this happening however, as they seem rather smitten with Sodhi.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So, are there anyone else that's excited about the SA vs Aus test series starting next week?

The Proteas will play a warm-up game from Wednesday to Saturday. The team they will play against is the remaining members of the test squad, along with 7 uncapped players that has played against Aus A last year. What's interesting for me is the inclusion of a new young fast bowler Reeza Hendricks. He is a left arm fast bowler, that has almost the same action as Mitchell Johnson.