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South Africa could probably declare now and they would still win by an innings if their players fancy a couple extra days off.

What has happened to New Zealand? They were never the best team, but they always used to be competent and be able to give opposition a decent match if they had an off day.

They have now gone from being able to challenge sides like England 10 years ago to now being nearer Bangladesh level.

Will Test Cricket die in New Zealand over the next 15 years with a rubbish team and dwindling crowds?

Test cricket will not die in New Zealand. I don't think interest is really dwindling at all. In New Zealand there are basically no summer sports. We have one professional football team which I would be surprised to see existing in ten years and one professional basketball team. Baseball is a growing sport too but apart from that it is all cricket. The Ross Taylor saga was probably the biggest sporting story of the year over here, bigger than when the All Blacks lost to England even. I expect the Basin at least to sell out for the Saturday/Sunday of the English test this year.

I also think we are a decidedly better team than the one who were bundled out for 45.

Our best team:

1. McCullum
2. Watling/Flynn/Guptill
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Ryder
6. Vettori
7. Ronchi/Watling
8. some sort of all rounder
9. Southee
10. Bracewell
11. Boult

Our bowling line up at our best is more than competent. It is at least better than India's and Sri Lanka's. There would still be questions about the top order and the balance of that side. I actually reckon the next few years will bring some good results. I think we are a lot better than Bangladesh. They are **** because they lack a bowling attack (their team bowling average is something like 52 over the past few years). Probably their batsmen are not a whole lot worse than ours but you can't win a game without bowlers. I think we could move ahead of both Sri Lanka and the Windies in the next few years both of whom could be hard hit by retirements. It's not a given but IMO our team isn't complete **** despite what 45 all out may tell you.

That was one of the best spells of bowling I have seen from Philander, too. Other teams probably would have weathered him better and had someone go on to make a score. I doubt any batting side in the world would have made over 300 on that pitch against Philander in that form. Of course no pitch and no bowler should restrict you to 45.
 
Test cricket will not die in New Zealand. I don't think interest is really dwindling at all. In New Zealand there are basically no summer sports. We have one professional football team which I would be surprised to see existing in ten years and one professional basketball team. Baseball is a growing sport too but apart from that it is all cricket. The Ross Taylor saga was probably the biggest sporting story of the year over here, bigger than when the All Blacks lost to England even. I expect the Basin at least to sell out for the Saturday/Sunday of the English test this year.

I also think we are a decidedly better team than the one who were bundled out for 45.

Our best team:

1. McCullum
2. Watling/Flynn/Guptill
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Ryder
6. Vettori
7. Ronchi/Watling
8. some sort of all rounder
9. Southee
10. Bracewell
11. Boult

Our bowling line up at our best is more than competent. It is at least better than India's and Sri Lanka's. There would still be questions about the top order and the balance of that side. I actually reckon the next few years will bring some good results. I think we are a lot better than Bangladesh. They are **** because they lack a bowling attack (their team bowling average is something like 52 over the past few years). Probably their batsmen are not a whole lot worse than ours but you can't win a game without bowlers. I think we could move ahead of both Sri Lanka and the Windies in the next few years both of whom could be hard hit by retirements. It's not a given but IMO our team isn't complete **** despite what 45 all out may tell you.

That was one of the best spells of bowling I have seen from Philander, too. Other teams probably would have weathered him better and had someone go on to make a score. I doubt any batting side in the world would have made over 300 on that pitch against Philander in that form. Of course no pitch and no bowler should restrict you to 45.

Yep, we managed to get to 121 in our first innings this test ;)

I agree with most of what you are saying there. I still think one of the major problems NZ has in test cricket is out lack of genuine opening batsmen. We have been shown time and time again that Guptill is not a test match opener - I think he would be very good at 5 or 6, but he doesn't have technique to open at test level. McCullum isn't an opener either - he probably does have the technique to succeed as an opener, he just lacks the temperament. At times it looks like he has finally worked out that he doesn't need to score at a run a ball, but then goes and gets himself out by playing a stupid shot. Because we lack quality openers more often than not we end up losing 2-3 wickets within the first 10 overs, and it can be very hard to fight back from that (especially if the bowlers get confident). Sometimes we can fight back a post a semi respectable score, but often we just collapse. We don't need our openers to even score many runs - they just need to stay in and take the shine off the new ball. Finishing the morning session at 60-0 is far better than being 90-3 (and substantially better than being 45 all out!).

I'm not actually sure what the answer to our opening problem is - I know that it is not Guptill though. BJ Watling looks to have the technique to be a successful opener, but that would require a major change of thinking by the NZ selectors (who see him currently as their first choice test gloveman). Given we actually have some semi-decent wicket-keepers available (Ronchi, de Boorder, van Wyk) I would be tempted to give Watling a chance at opening (I mean a real chance - a few full series - rather than the 1-2 games they give most players...), though he is doing a great job in the middle order at the moment.

Our middle order is actually pretty strong, and our pace attack (Bracewell, Southee, Boult - with backup from Martin, Wagner etc) is actually pretty handy. We do lack a quality spin bowler though. When Vettori is fit he can do a good job as a containing spin bowler, but it has been a long time since he ripped through an opposition batting lineup. There are no obvious solutions here either. Patel struggles at test level - he has a bowling average in the late 40s, and has only taken a single wicket thus far this series. Bruce Martin is a containing bowler in the Vettori mold (but nowhere he in Vettori's class), Astle and Nethula are ok provincial leg-spinners but really don't do much with the ball. I best hope is that Vettori recovers soon, manages to regain his wicket taking form, and lasts for another 5+ years.....
 
I can see Luke Ronchi becoming keeper and Watling moving to a specialist batsman spot. Ronchi apparently has the best glovework in NZ according to some.

Really does not help that southee, taylor and Rider are not involved for this series. They are basically our best players.

Jessie Rider doesn't need NZ cricket but heck do NZ cricket need Rider. He's basically booked himself into big buck tournaments in India with his recent performances including a 75 off 25 balls. One of the most powerful natural cricketers in the world. When he's not in the blackcaps the x-factor drops substantially. He has far more good days than Guppy or McCullum, I think his test average is around or over 50. We desperately need him back. He is a genuine threat to opposition bowling attacks on a level above all our other batsmen.

I kinda feel like the development of Bracewell and Boult has stalled a little. I want to see them keep getting better but they are both flat lining a bit and becoming predictable. Southee is starting to flourish and he needs some serious support.

Flynn is disappointing again, had some hopes for him before the tour, working hard and doing focused training for the conditions in Africa, but he just seems to get out all the time lol.

Martin needs to go. It's embarising having this guy around. He's the worst batsman in international cricket and his test bowling average is only ~34. He had a purple patch for a while a year or so ago where he was bowling ~140km/h and turning in some good performances but he's back bowling ~120 again and really just getting the odd lucky wicket. He's a trooper, tall and fit, never injured, gives his all - but 120km/h is not scaring opposition batting orders. In a team without many world class batsmen I think it's critical basically everyone can hold the bat so that if one of the top 7 batsmen fires then they have got guys they can rely on right down the order. I think even our #11 batsman should be able to average over 15. Southee bracewell boult vetori and co can all hold the bat. martin is just a shambles.

I'd like to see NZ cricket rally around Adam Milne a bit more, just 20 years old, genuine fast bowler with an action that looks good. Basically just make sure they are doing everything they can to see that he reaches his potential. He can throw down at 150km/h with pretty good accuracy. NZ have not really been a genuine top test team recently without Shane Bond in the side, heck at one stage I think the NZ test side was ranked 3 or even 2?. If Milne can get his ability to match his potential the black caps will have a serious weapon.
 
I can see Luke Ronchi becoming keeper and Watling moving to a specialist batsman spot. Ronchi apparently has the best glovework in NZ according to some.

I haven't seen much of Ronchi's glovework, but that sounds promising. I remain unconvinced with Watling behind the stumps. He is ok, but we really need a top class keeper that takes every chance that is on offer.

I kinda feel like the development of Bracewell and Boult has stalled a little. I want to see them keep getting better but they are both flat lining a bit and becoming predictable. Southee is starting to flourish and he needs some serious support.

I still think Boult is bowling pretty well - he hasn't exactly been on fire versus South Africa (4 wicket @ 47), but South Africa do have a pretty good batting lineup! I can't help but think Bracewell's recent struggles at test level have a lot to do with T20 cricket. Our bowlers (much like our batsmen) really seem to struggle to switch between the two forms of the game. When Bracewell was tearing though Australia at the start of last season he was bowling a lovely line and length just outside off. However he seems to have lost this due the abundance of T20 cricket he has been playing - if he bowled that line an length in T20 cricket he would be hammered all over the place. The exact same thing happened to Southee after playing a huge amount of T20 cricket - he became great at bowling full and straight, but lost the ability to bowl the right line and length for test level. He seems to have regained that over the last 6 months, so hopefully he can keep it up!

Flynn is disappointing again, had some hopes for him before the tour, working hard and doing focused training for the conditions in Africa, but he just seems to get out all the time lol.

I don't mind Flynn - he normally puts up a good fight, but he really struggled against South Africa. If New Zealand was at full strength he would struggle to make the top side, but I do think he has the technique and temperament to succeed at test level - even if his test record thus far isn't that impressive. Personally I would have been tempted to have Flynn opening (with Guptill down at 5) - I don't really think Flynn is an opener yet, but he could develop into a test opener over time (and we don't really have many good options!).

Martin needs to go. It's embarising having this guy around. He's the worst batsman in international cricket and his test bowling average is only ~34. He had a purple patch for a while a year or so ago where he was bowling ~140km/h and turning in some good performances but he's back bowling ~120 again and really just getting the odd lucky wicket. He's a trooper, tall and fit, never injured, gives his all - but 120km/h is not scaring opposition batting orders. In a team without many world class batsmen I think it's critical basically everyone can hold the bat so that if one of the top 7 batsmen fires then they have got guys they can rely on right down the order. I think even our #11 batsman should be able to average over 15. Southee bracewell boult vetori and co can all hold the bat. martin is just a shambles.

I think the first South African test was the last time we will see Martin playing a test for New Zealand. 233 wickets @ 34 isn't a great return for most test nations, but it is a great effort for a New Zealand bowler. That puts him 3rd on the all time list of New Zealand test wicket takers, and a bowling average in the low-mid 30's is fine for any NZ bowler not named Bond or Hadlee. His batting has always been a joke though, and as you say he doesn't justify his position in the team at the moment, so he should be let go to give some of the younger bowlers a chance.

I'd like to see NZ cricket rally around Adam Milne a bit more, just 20 years old, genuine fast bowler with an action that looks good. Basically just make sure they are doing everything they can to see that he reaches his potential. He can throw down at 150km/h with pretty good accuracy. NZ have not really been a genuine top test team recently without Shane Bond in the side, heck at one stage I think the NZ test side was ranked 3 or even 2?. If Milne can get his ability to match his potential the black caps will have a serious weapon.

While I agree that Milne looks to have talent, I don't think there should be any rush to get him involved in the test side yet. He is still only 20, and (due to a few injury problems) has only played 8 first-class matches thus far. I think NZ cricket have done a good job by giving him a few early T20/ODI matches, but they need to give him a full season of first class cricket before he gets involved in the test side. There are a few other pretty quick bowlers starting to develop around the country too. Mitch McClenaghan looks to have finally got over his injury problems and is bowling pretty well, while the likes of Mathieson, Verma, Small and Duffy are all pretty quick too (and Duffy is still only 18!). I'm not suggesting any of these bowlers should be in the test side at the moment (though McClenaghan is getting closer), but it is good to see some quicker bowlers starting to emerge on he domestic scene.
 
New Zealand has a long way to go to be competitive in the Test arena. From the 2 tests vs SA which I followed day by day, there are a bunch of things they need to work on:
1. You'll never take 20 wickets in a test if your fastest bowler's fastest ball is just 136km/h. That's how fast Jacques Kallis bowls, and he was the 4th choice bowler for SA. Morkel, Steyn and Kleinveldt as well as Philander all got up to the 140km/h mark and even went well past that.
2. NZ needs a quality spinner. Patel was no real threat to the Proteas. For a team that usually struggles against spin, they dispatched him quite easily.
3. Their top 4 batsmen need to be on form. Mccullum, Guptil, Franklin and Whoever Else are not on form. To me they only play well in NZ, but as soon as they leave the Island, they are very poor.
4. Their fielding, oh my word!! they dropped so many catches, dropping Amla is never a smart move, he was on 49 and went on to get a century. Fielding is about attitude, and they certainly didn't have the correct attitude.

the ODI's starts on Saturday, and then it will be a whole new ball game again. Proteas will be experimenting with some new guys coming in, Keep an eye out on Quintin De Kock. he's a 20 year old Wicket-keeper Batsmen, that can smash the ball very far. I also think these games will be a lot closer than the tests as always. and guys like Dale Steyn and Vernon Philander doesn't all that much ODI games.
 
ODI should be more competitive and I agree that we need to have a look at getting guys in that are more apt for the format.

I don't know why we play 20/20 though; the format is a complete joke and it's not even entertaining whereas rugby's 7's format as a parallel at least has that going for it. Cricket just isn't about cheap thrills. Much less so than rugby.
 
ODI should be more competitive and I agree that we need to have a look at getting guys in that are more apt for the format.

I don't know why we play 20/20 though; the format is a complete joke and it's not even entertaining whereas rugby's 7's format as a parallel at least has that going for it. Cricket just isn't about cheap thrills. Much less so than rugby.

I agree totally about T20!!

it was implemented for the pure purpose to get more money into the game, and especially from India. Their IPL has lost it's shine and now there's all these reports of corruption and so on which shouldn't be in the game.

By the way, did you read that article about Henry Williams who has admitted that he lied during Hansie Cronje's trial?
 
New Zealand has a long way to go to be competitive in the Test arena. From the 2 tests vs SA which I followed day by day, there are a bunch of things they need to work on:
1. You'll never take 20 wickets in a test if your fastest bowler's fastest ball is just 136km/h. That's how fast Jacques Kallis bowls, and he was the 4th choice bowler for SA. Morkel, Steyn and Kleinveldt as well as Philander all got up to the 140km/h mark and even went well past that.
While in the past our bowlers lack of pace has been an issue, I don't think it is a major issue now. While the likes of Bracewell, Wagner, Boult, and Southee aren't express, they all bowl in the mid 130's (I would say all are a very similar speed to Philander) which is quick enough to take wickets at test level if they put it in the right areas. Boult, Bracewell, and Southee have the making of a very good seam attack - we just need them to all perform at the same time (which happens only once or twice a year).

2. NZ needs a quality spinner. Patel was no real threat to the Proteas. For a team that usually struggles against spin, they dispatched him quite easily.
There is no doubt about this. As I mentioned previously there are no obvious solutions here, as we have never been a country that produces quality spinners (and as a consequence our batsmen really struggle against quality spin attacks).
3. Their top 4 batsmen need to be on form. Mccullum, Guptil, Franklin and Whoever Else are not on form. To me they only play well in NZ, but as soon as they leave the Island, they are very poor.
I'm not sure that is the case - our top order struggles no matter where we are. Our lack of openers is the biggest issue - if we could get a couple of good openers we potentially could have a pretty good batting lineup, but the likes of Williamson, Taylor, Ryder, and Brownlie are often exposed far too soon.

4. Their fielding, oh my word!! they dropped so many catches, dropping Amla is never a smart move, he was on 49 and went on to get a century. Fielding is about attitude, and they certainly didn't have the correct attitude.
The blackcaps fielding over the last 2-3 years has probably been the most disappointing aspect to me. We have never had the greatest batsmen or bowlers, but we have often been able to compete (especially in the shorter formats) due to outstanding team fielding. Not sure what has happened over recent years, but we really need to improve our fielding 100%

the ODI's starts on Saturday, and then it will be a whole new ball game again. Proteas will be experimenting with some new guys coming in, Keep an eye out on Quintin De Kock. he's a 20 year old Wicket-keeper Batsmen, that can smash the ball very far. I also think these games will be a lot closer than the tests as always. and guys like Dale Steyn and Vernon Philander doesn't all that much ODI games.
Yep the ODI's should be closer than the tests, but that isn't really saying too much! Hopefully we manage to sneak a win in one of the games, but I'm not overly confident.
 
SA are also in the position of not producing quality spin bowlers and as a consequence generally have quite a tough time against a team that do. That's our only real weakness IMO. Well that and not being able to perform when it REALLY matters ;loss of focus?
 
pretty much agree with everything in your reply Darwin.

yeah Milne shouldn't be rushed into the test side or anything. I just think that giving the kid the best coaching we can now will pay off in the future.

Also think the same for Todd Latham, just in a batting sense obviously.

Couple of names I didn't mention - james franklin, I really like the guy I think he's very talented. Just think think his tactics have been very good, maybe some technique problems as well. the guy can obviously see a ball and hot the snot out of it. Patel, just don't know really, I wish we had a really good spinner but NZ conditions are not good for breading spinners. Maybe we just focus on strengths but at the same time it's critical we develop good spinners in NZ so our batsmen get experience facing them.

It's all good talking about the players, the big question is do the top guys at NZC need to go? I dont have a great opinion on the matter, dont know enough about the guys but surely a change wont make things worse :)
 
While in the past our bowlers lack of pace has been an issue, I don't think it is a major issue now. While the likes of Bracewell, Wagner, Boult, and Southee aren't express, they all bowl in the mid 130's (I would say all are a very similar speed to Philander) which is quick enough to take wickets at test level if they put it in the right areas. Boult, Bracewell, and Southee have the making of a very good seam attack - we just need them to all perform at the same time (which happens only once or twice a year).

Fair enough, but none of them are as accurate as Philander, so they don't keep the pressure on the batsmen as much as Philander does. at test level you will get punished against good batsmen. In ODI's it's okay, as sometimes the bad ball usually gets a wicket by the batsmen trying to smash it and then mistimes his shot.

I see Steyn is in the ODI squad, so hopefully our bowling attack will do a good job. First match is at Paarl on Saturday, and the cricket pundits think the pitch will be very quick...
 
Fair enough, but none of them are as accurate as Philander, so they don't keep the pressure on the batsmen as much as Philander does. at test level you will get punished against good batsmen. In ODI's it's okay, as sometimes the bad ball usually gets a wicket by the batsmen trying to smash it and then mistimes his shot.

I see Steyn is in the ODI squad, so hopefully our bowling attack will do a good job. First match is at Paarl on Saturday, and the cricket pundits think the pitch will be very quick...

Yep I agree 100%. I think bowling at 135kph if quick enough at test level if you can put the ball in the right areas consistently (which Philander does beautifully). It helps if you make the ball move a bit too, and if the conditions suit Bracewell, Boult, and Southee in particular can be quite a handful. They are all still young (Southee is the oldest at 24), so they have plenty of time to develop into more consistent test bowlers. Whether this happens or not is yet to be seen!

Not quite sure what to expect out of the ODI series. We actually have some ok ODI batsmen and bat pretty deep, but I still think we will struggle against Steyn et al. I think our bowling will be at least as big an issue as our batting during the ODI series as we really lack strike bowlers. McLenaghan and Wagner can take wickets when they fire, but they usually go for quite a few runs. Mills and Boult are more accurate but aren't likely to run through a batting lineup, while or spinners (Hira, Nicol, and McCullum) are containing options rather than attacking options. One of the biggest issues may be our 5th/6th bowling options - I suspect we will look to stack our batting lineup meaning the likes of Franklin, Munro, Neesham, and Elliot may end up bowling quite a few overs (and they aren't exactly great ODI bowlers...).

I'm hoping for a NZ line-up along the lines of:

M Guptill
BJ Watling (looked good opening in Sri Lanka)
R Nicol
K Williamson
B McCullum (need some solidity in middle order without Taylor)
C Munro (not convinced about him yet, but he can hit the ball a long way and he is in form)
J Neesham (probably too soon for him, but I think he will be a better option than Franklin or Elliot)
N McCullum
K Mills
T Boult
M McClenaghan (He will be expensive, but we need someone to take wickets!).

That would give us pretty deep batting lineup and plenty of bowling options. I wouldn't mind seeing Hira get a game or two as well - the problem is that the pitch conditions are unlikely to require NZ to play two specialist spinners (and McCullum is clearly the first choice spinner).
 
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man I really like Nathan McCullum, he is the kinda player NZ really need more of, useful bowler and batsman and very good fielder, the simple fact he holds catches others would drop makes him a huge asset to the team giving huge value his batting and bowling stats don't relay.

I've said many times fielding is the key area for the black caps moving forward, we wont have the best bowlers and batsmen in the world but we can be the best fielding team in the world and that can keep us in more games long enough for the odd result to swing our way.

We need more guys who can run people out from deep. I remember Chris Cairns could run you out from the boundary if you took him on for 2-3 runs because he had an awesome and accurate throw. We dnt really have guys in the team that can do that now.
 
Good to see we managed to win a game for once (just!). A fantastic ODI debut for McClenaghan with 10-4-20. Williamson made a (somewhat surprising) strong contribution with the ball too (7.2-4-22), while Watling, Franklin, N McCullum, and Mills did enough to get us home with the bat (though I though it was all over when we were 8 down with 70-odd still to get!). Despite the win I'm not at all convinced about the balance of the team - we basically had 2 specialist bowlers (Mills and McClenaghan) + a pile of all-rounders (all, with the exception of N McCullum, I would consider more batting all rounders). I would look to add another specialist bowler for the next game (Boult), at the expense of Elliot, and I would also consider including Munro for Neesham (though would be prepared to give Nesham another shot).

It was good to see Franklin deliver when it counted (for once). There is no doubt he is a talented cricketer, he just never seems to deliver on the big stage. Hopefully he can perform consistently for the rest of the series (and beyond!)

man I really like Nathan McCullum, he is the kinda player NZ really need more of, useful bowler and batsman and very good fielder, the simple fact he holds catches others would drop makes him a huge asset to the team giving huge value his batting and bowling stats don't relay.

I've said many times fielding is the key area for the black caps moving forward, we wont have the best bowlers and batsmen in the world but we can be the best fielding team in the world and that can keep us in more games long enough for the odd result to swing our way.

We need more guys who can run people out from deep. I remember Chris Cairns could run you out from the boundary if you took him on for 2-3 runs because he had an awesome and accurate throw. We dnt really have guys in the team that can do that now.

I agree that we really need to get our fielding back to the standard that it used to be. Nathan McCullum is a handy cricketer - I don't think he is the most talented cricketer out there, but he makes up for it with his competitive nature. He is more a throwback to type of players we had playing 10-15 years ago when we were a bit more competitive - not the best bunch of cricketers, but players that would never give up.

As a slight aside, it was great to see Otago win the New Zealand T20 domestic comp. We dominated the entire competition, and managed to win the final without a number of our key players (N McCullum, Neesham, Wagner) which was great to see
 
funny, read my last post and then what happens. We win a game and the series doing exactly what I said we needed to do.

Field well - 5 run outs!
run outs from deep - james franklin brilliant throw from deep got us a runout that sparked the South African Batting collapse
batting down the order - important contributions from Mills and Nathan McCullum

Great innings from williamson, this guy has so much potential - this just proves it. I hope we see young guys like "next Gen" Latham and Rutherford follow suit.
 
Ugh!!!

What a bunch of ****ing chokers!!

5 run-outs!! FIVE!!!!

surely when the 2nd one happened the guys had to get together and say, listen guy, these guys are fielding well, we shouldn't take risky runs.

But no! we continue to under perform in the ODI's, and we have 23 ODI's to play this season!! It's going to be a long season.....
 
Great game by NZ. I expected us to turn it around but NZ backed up a good batting display with an even better fielding display to defend their total.

I have to say I expect more from us in the ODIs. I couldn't give two hoots about 20/20 but it pains me to see us looking amateurs in the OD format.
 
That was a fantastic win for New Zealand - Williamson's innings was one of the best I have seen. Mills impressed with the ball too, and the team fielding effort really stood out. It is about time that Guptill starts scoring some runs again at ODI level, as his ability to get big scores at the top is important to us. He is still showing great form in T20 cricket, but has looked out of sorts the last few ODI series.

It would be great to wrap up a 3-0 series win tomorrow, but I suspect that South Africa will be very fired up for the next match!
 
So Eng tour of NZ coming up, Ryder and Vettori still out, time for England to build their averages, or will NZ turn things around?
 
So South Africa have won the first test vs Pakistan today by 211 runs.

Dale Steyn picked up 11 wickets, with a career best first innings scorecard of 8.1 overs bowled, 6 Maidens, 8 Runs, 6 Wickets. and then followed that up with 28.4 overs bowled, 10 maidens, 52 Runs, 5 Wickets. that's 36 overs bowled, 16 maidens, 60 runs with 11 wickets!!

AB De Villiers also equalled the world record for taking 11 catches in the match, but he made it better by scoring an unbeaten century...
 

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