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[COVID-19] General Discussion

ncurd said:
Do we have supply or take up issues? The other week our vaccination center in town wasn't even open on the Saturday. I do wonder which it really is and it's not really being reported fro what I can see.
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Looks like it's take up issues now - vaccination sites are returning unused doses to PHE
 
The_Blindside said:
The good thing is that with such a low population if Jacinda's Govt. can get their hands on 10-15 million doses of Pfizer/Moderna/AZ and J&J vaccines then NZ could be vaccinated in no time. If following a 3-4 week gap between two jabs. Although here in UK the 8 week jab has been shown to be more effective in terms of keeping the immunity at its optimum for longer.

J&J of course needing only 1 jab, but not sure how effective it is compared to the others.

But the question of opening up the countries borders and when is the decision of Jacinda's Govt. best to do it when at least 70% have been fully vaccinated. Hopefully Delta variant can be kept at bay as long as possible. That is the one spreading and requiring higher immunity levels in the population to keep cases from rising.

Starting from such a low base of infection anyway it would be interesting to see how much NZ's immunity in the population will be needed from vaccination alone to keep cases low enough to open up the borders again. It is inevitable that those who won't or can't be vaccinated will then catch the virus naturally.

Bojo's Govt, and the other Govts here are relying on a combo of immunity in the population being reached by both vaccination and natural infection. So far > 90% have the so called antibodies but we just don't know how long they will last for, although this doesn't take into account the effect on T cells to protect against infection. Boosters will be needed starting with the over 50s this Autumn.

Are peeps in NZ social distancing still, wearing masks indoors/crowded places atm?

I think in an ideal world a country would have started off with NZ's zero covid policy and then vaccinated as many peeps as possible. Make it mandatory if necessary before opening up the country's borders.
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Thanks for the informative post.

to answer your question, we aren't social distancing usually, but there have been a few times when the alert levels have gone up meaning we have to social distance. People are ok at it compared to what I've heard from other countries, but could be better. but for the most part pretty good at not gathering in crowds. Even with alert level 1 (normal state of affairs) almost everyone where's a mask on public transport, and people seem to be better than usual at washing hands, a lot of people are good at not going to work if sick, but that is situation specific as those who can't afford to miss work and can't work at home are hardly going to stop working when they are sick.
 


Good question. I've never understood anti vaxxers stance on what is their alternative to controlling a pandemic other than through vaccines, mask wearing, social distancing. Just through natural herd immunity as long as it doesn't infringe on their civil liberties?
 
The_Blindside said:
Good question. I've never understood anti vaxxers stance on what is their alternative to controlling a pandemic other than through vaccines, mask wearing, social distancing. Just through natural herd immunity as long as it doesn't infringe on their civil liberties?
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They have no desire to control the pandemic.
Millions of deaths is a price worth paying for the freedom to not wear a piece of cloth over their nose - just ask Niel Oliver.

Laws about wearing seatbelts, drunk driving, speeding, hygienic food preparation, hard hats on building sites; scrubs, facemasks and vaccines for healthcare staff etc etc etc, they're all different. Self-evidently and obviously different, in a way that nobody can actually put into words.
 
Which Tyler said:
They have no desire to control the pandemic.
Millions of deaths is a price worth paying for the freedom to not wear a piece of cloth over their nose - just ask Niel Oliver.

Laws about wearing seatbelts, drunk driving, speeding, hygienic food preparation, hard hats on building sites; scrubs, facemasks and vaccines for healthcare staff etc etc etc, they're all different. Self-evidently and obviously different, in a way that nobody can actually put into words.
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His view in a nutshell:

"Here's the thing. If your freedom means I might catch Covid from you, then so be it. If my freedom means you might catch Covid from me, then so be it. That's honestly how I see it."

www.heraldscotland.com

Anger as Scots broadcaster Neil Oliver states he would ‘cheerfully risk catching Covid’ in name of freedom

SCOTS TV historian Neil Oliver has been castigated after stating he would "cheerfully risk catching Covid" in the name of personal freedom.
www.heraldscotland.com www.heraldscotland.com


Austin Powers Doctor Evil GIF
 
The_Blindside said:
His view in a nutshell:

"Here's the thing. If your freedom means I might catch Covid from you, then so be it. If my freedom means you might catch Covid from me, then so be it. That's honestly how I see it."

www.heraldscotland.com

Anger as Scots broadcaster Neil Oliver states he would ‘cheerfully risk catching Covid’ in name of freedom

SCOTS TV historian Neil Oliver has been castigated after stating he would "cheerfully risk catching Covid" in the name of personal freedom.
www.heraldscotland.com www.heraldscotland.com


Austin Powers Doctor Evil GIF
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I find this notion of freedom ridiculous. Essentially they are advocating anarchy. No rules, just do what you want. Problem is that's fine until someone else's freedom disrupts your freedom. Then they complain that government's should do something. The whole point of laws is to create a framework, by which everyone can live peacefully. Yes we don't have complete freedom, but we are safe. Problem is that America, Britain and other western democracies have associated democracy with freedom to the extent they have almost become synonymous. However, the reality is that almost every law the government makes restricts your freedoms in some way, but usually in order to preserve a peaceful society. It's the same with governments and capitalism, any state rules or interventions are almost always anti-capitalist as they restrict what people and companies can do. Yes they allow people to make money, but they don't allow a completely free capitalist system that would lead to monopolies and price inflation etc...

I've felt for a while that our idea of freedom needs to be reframed as many people, especially those anti-vaxxers in America for example, seem to think that they live in a country where they can do what they want, when the reality is, they've always had restrictions on their lives, that are part of how a society functions. It especially doesn't help with phrases like 'leader of the free world'. Essentially we need a cultural shift away from freedom of the individual to working for the benefit of society as a whole. Especially in a world that is becoming less and less sustainable, worrying about your own little personal freedoms or amassing your own wealth will not help you. Look at India where there were stories of rich people trying to buy ventilators, but couldn't. Yes some did, but others couldn't despite all their money and were no different from the poorest Indian citizen.
 
Really hate the increasing stream of "soft" anti-vaxxers cropping up on social media

"It's my personal choice"
"I just don't trust anything the government are pushing this hard"
"I just want to wait and see the long term side effects"

My block lists are growing exponentially, just makes me so angry
 
How do people here think: "no vax=no job" is a right thing? Or wrong?
I don't know how to answer this question, personally..
 
Yulia said:
How do people here think: "no vax=no job" is a right thing? Or wrong?
I don't know how to answer this question, personally..
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considering one of the small outbreaks NZ had last year is suspected to have come in on produce imported from Aus during the Vic Second wave i think people handling food is a good place to start
 
Yulia said:
How do people here think: "no vax=no job" is a right thing? Or wrong?
I don't know how to answer this question, personally..
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It's really difficult, because part of your human rights is that you cannot have any kind of medical procedure forced on you and this includes vaccines. Does no vax=no job mean people are forced to have it, that's a grey area. However, at the same time this people are putting others at risk and causing problems for the companies they work for. Trying to think of a good comparison, but essentially an employee might have to take time off, for something that could have been prevented. It's a bit crap, but imagine an employee getting food poisoning from eating food that was mouldy and out of date. Yes they are ill, but they also put themselves at risk by their actions. Should they get sick pay in those circumstances?

For me anti-vaxxers stem from two main issues. The first is education. It's insane that we still live in a world where people think the world is flat, or they need to be electrocuted to remove dead alien spirits from their bodies. Anti-vaxxers are in the same category. Majority of education systems around the world are still aimed at getting children to repeat information necessary to pass a test and don't require much critical thinking. We don't teach people how to determine if information is correct, which leaves them open to misinformation and conspiracies. Social media companies also have a lot to answer for in allowing conspiracies theorists to reach their audience.
The second is this notion of freedom I've mentioned earlier in the thread, where people incorrectly believe that their personal freedoms are more important than society. Instead of creating a culture that encourages people to work for the benefit of everyone, we have societies that are based on doing the best for yourself. Therefore people only think about how the vaccine will affect them and not how it might affect others.

Put it simply, forcing people to have the vaccine, even indirectly, is dangerous territory and a slippery slope. Instead of using force, we need to better educate people and create a society where people think about more than just themselves. Unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, though as humans by nature are greedy and selfish.
 
@Reiser99 we have pretty same views on it and I also think that:
Reiser99 said:
forcing people to have the vaccine, even indirectly, is dangerous territory
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But not sure if that one will really work:
Reiser99 said:
we need to better educate people
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Maybe there should be also some "soft pressure" for anti-vaxers? Like, let's say, some budget travel companies/hotels/airlines will require vaccine certificate (or certificate proving that you can't be vaccinated for medical reasons) from their clients. It will make some people to think about vaccination if they don't want to pay extra for a more expensive hotel/flight etc. And there can be that kind of policy in every field,not only tourism. Humans are greedy by nature as you said,so it can be helpful I think
 
Yulia said:
@Reiser99 we have pretty same views on it and I also think that:

But not sure if that one will really work:

Maybe there should be also some "soft pressure" for anti-vaxers? Like, let's say, some budget travel companies/hotels/airlines will require vaccine certificate (or certificate proving that you can't be vaccinated for medical reasons) from their clients. It will make some people to think about vaccination if they don't want to pay extra for a more expensive hotel/flight etc. And there can be that kind of policy in every field,not only tourism. Humans are greedy by nature as you said,so it can be helpful I think
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Tbh, better educating can range from completely overhauling the education system to just providing people with more information. I know governments do have vaccination campaigns, so maybe they need to invest more in those for the current pandemic.

As for soft pressure, I think it will depend on the law. As with jobs, refusing someone something on the grounds of not having a vaccination could open companies up to discrimination lawsuits. I know it's apparently being tried in some places. I doubt we will really know if it works until some challenges it in court. Personally I would be fine with it, but hey I'm vaccinated and still wear a mask as I don't mind a little inconvenience for the sake of not putting others at risk. However, legally, I have no idea if it is possible in Britain, let alone other countries.
 
Yulia said:
How do people here think: "no vax=no job" is a right thing? Or wrong?
I don't know how to answer this question, personally..
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For me....
Either side of any contract can apply whatever requirements they like - everything is up for negotiation. Plenty of jobs already require vaccination (eg Hep C for medical staff, TB for pretty much all adults etc).
It's only problematic in terms of altering an existing contract - but that's fine, so long as the change is far enough in the future to cover contract renewals or notice periods.

When France floated the idea, they were talking about 3 months notice - which seemed fine to me. When the UK leaked the idea, they were talking about a few weeks, which was not.


Covid vaccine is different and more controversial, because it's new, and not already standard, and accompanied by a massed false-information campaign.
Nobody has a problem with various other restrictions on freedumb for the sake of pubic safety - just this one - largely because the libertarian and anti-vaxx movements have become organised and politically powerful and well funded over the last decade or two.


Reiser99 said:
Does no vax=no job mean people are forced to have it, that's a grey area.
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It's really not.
It's coercion, not force. Absolutely nobody is talking about making it law of the land for all jobs (bad faith slippery slope arguments from the anti-vaxxers aside). Any company can put their own requirements on any contacts offered - including rolling contracts, so long as there's sufficient notice and that it's not discriminating against an oppressed minority (which being a selfish idiot isn't). The closest that's been talked about as law is medical and healthcare workers - who are the most important to be vaccinated, and are supposed to be caring the most for other people's health. Nobody has an automatic right to be a healthcare worker just because they want to, so nobody's rights are being threatened.

Reiser99 said:
As for soft pressure, I think it will depend on the law. As with jobs, refusing someone something on the grounds of not having a vaccination could open companies up to discrimination lawsuits.
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Outside of America, they will fail. Discrimination laws are to protect people from oppressed minorities for things that are inherent to who they are (skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, faith, disability etc).
Inside of America legal decisions are often based more on political ideology than legal exactitude.
 
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