Cipriani & Borthwick on Melbourne's Super15 list

[lucky_number_7]

whatever happenned to magnus lund i always thought he ws brilliant

 

[Nickdnz]

By that time Aaron Cruden will be ready to be the best .

 

[Olyy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lucky_number_7 @ Jan 26 2010, 10:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

whatever happenned to magnus lund i always thought he ws brilliant[/b]

Went off to play in France and faded away into obscurity (in the eyes of the England selectors anyway)

 

[david0404]

i highly doubt that many of these players will got to melbourne. they're all too keen on england places and i don't think they've got half a chance of keeping the jersey if they go to australia. i can't see martin johnson jetting out to australia once a month to go and see a couple of englishmen warming the bench in australia.

 

[Tomsey]

Stevens to join Saracens after doping ban

Stevens is out too

 

[Bullitt]

I hope they both bugger off to Melbourne then have an unfortunate run with some over-zealous South Africans.

 

[Juggernaut]

Borthwick???? WTF

Are they farking serious??

Cipriani at least would be good for the marketing side and trying to draw up support down in Mexico but Borthwick??

I dont know, if I was McQueen....I would be going after more capable players.

 

[Charles]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juggernaut @ Feb 5 2010, 06:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Borthwick???? WTF

Are they farking serious??

Cipriani at least would be good for the marketing side and trying to draw up support down in Mexico but Borthwick??

I dont know, if I was McQueen....I would be going after more capable players.[/b]

The problem is that the Rebels are not in the best postion attractiveness wise:

-(probably) lower salary than in the NH

-huge travels and jet lag etc...

-(probably) competing for the last place on the ladder

 

[Olyy]

I read something on Planet Rugby yesterday saying Cipriani had been talking to the Melbourne scouts, and that they've spoken to 25 other GP (or Northern Hemisphere, can't remember which) players
Nothing official, just a "we're interested if you are" kind of affair

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rug...icle7015714.ece

Danny Cipriani turns his back on England and books passage Down Under

Danny Cipriani has made up his mind to move to Australia and join the Melbourne Rebels, The Times has been told.

The fallen idol of English rugby has decided to cut his losses and commit himself to the new Super 15 franchise in Victoria. It is understood that his decision to make a fresh start 10,000 miles away was relayed to Rod Macqueen, the Rebels head coach, yesterday. In confirming his interest in Cipriani on Wednesday, Macqueen had said how highly he rated him.

Once details on a likely two-year contract worth more than £200,000 a season are confirmed and a formal offer made, and provided there are no last-minute hitches, he will travel Down Under in October with Kelly Brook, his actress girlfriend. In doing so he will become the first England international to play club rugby in Australia in the professional era. His capture will be a coup for the team, who hope to attract up to five leading players from Britain.

In the 24 hours since The Times broke the story of the Melbourne Rebels' interest in the London Wasps fly half, events have moved rapidly.


Negotiations have been continuing with Gerard Tyrell, Cipriani's lawyer at the London firm of Harbottle & Lewis. Cipriani spent yesterday at Twickenham with the England Saxons squad, for whom he has been selected to play at full back â€" not fly half â€" against Italy A in Treviso on Sunday. For Cipriani, 22, who not so long ago was "the future" of English rugby, that was confirmation enough that he had reached a dead end in England, at least for the time being. A comment yesterday by Stuart Lancaster, the Saxons coach, can only have reinforced that message. "He's got pace and as a broken-field runner, there aren't many better," Lancaster said. "But like all young players, he's still developing and learning about the game."

Cipriani's readiness to turn his back on England is, on the face of it, staggering but perhaps, when put into context, not surprising. The Times has learnt that he had in principle made up his mind several days ago after being told by a close associate that Martin Johnson apparently did not consider him part of his plans for the immediate future, including the World Cup in New Zealand next year. The England team manager is said to have made it clear that he did not "trust" Cipriani.

Armed with that knowledge, the player, who last week had met John Connolly, the former Australia coach responsible for Rebels' recruitment, realised that however well he performed, he would not be able to alter Johnson's perception of him. Thus the decision in the end was straightforward.

A source close to Cipriani said: "Danny had to make sure that he was making the decision for the right reasons, that he was not running as far away as he could, but that the move would be good for him and his game in the long term. You have to think that even if he stays there two years, he will still only be 24 and with his best years ahead of him, including maybe two World Cups. When you add everything up it makes sense. It could be the making of him."

However, it may also signal the end of him as a figure in English rugby. One cannot help but think that the laid-back Australian lifestyle could prove altogether too alluring and more suited to his nature and demeanour.

His departure will be a bitter blow to London Wasps both commercially and in playing terms, but perhaps Tony Hanks, the director of rugby, will not be surprised. Cipriani is out of contract this summer and that he had stalled on signing a new, improved offer was a clear sign that he believed that his future lay elsewhere, be it in France or farther afield.

Stade Français's offer was considered too low and Perpignan felt that Cipriani was not the right man for them at present. With Paul Sackey rumoured to be attracting the attention of big-spending Toulon, uncertain times lie ahead for Wasps, the former English and European champions.[/b]

 

[Olyy]

I don't like Cipriani, but fair play,
Good money, a change of pace etc. and he's not going to get a look in at the England squad for a while (Wikinson, Flood, Geraghty ahead of him at 10, Armitage and Foden ahead at 15) so he won't be missing out on anything there

However, considering how average he's been of late in the GP, he's going to seem much worse down south

 

[Bullitt]

Considering how crap defences are down there, not to mention how often kickers get charged down, he should fit in perfectly.

I bet Kelly Brook would look nice in a Bikini under the Melbourne sunshine also.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Considering how crap defences are down there, not to mention how often kickers get charged down, he should fit in perfectly.

I bet Kelly Brook would look nice in a Bikini under the Melbourne sunshine also.[/b]

Pfft, it'll be interesting to see him play in a competition in which the players aren't looking to retire with a pay big pay check, and are still in decent form. And S14 dosn't have crap defence, teams just learn this trick, it's called "attacking rugby", I understand it may differ from the kick, kick, kick, style game your used to .

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Feb 5 2010, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Considering how crap defences are down there, not to mention how often kickers get charged down, he should fit in perfectly.

I bet Kelly Brook would look nice in a Bikini under the Melbourne sunshine also.[/b]

Pfft, it'll be interesting to see him play in a competition in which the players aren't looking to retire with a pay big pay check, and are still in decent form. And S14 dosn't have crap defence, teams just learn this trick, it's called "attacking rugby", I understand it may differ from the kick, kick, kick, style game your used to.
[/b][/quote]

I watch an awful lot of S14 rugby (you see, I like to watch all leagues as I like Rugby, not just the local brand as some so-called fans do) and I am well aware that:

1. The aimless kick-kick-kick into the midfield was commonplace in that competition long before the ELVs came along.
2. The obsession with "flowing" leads to such an unstructured setup that defences operated a revolving-door policy.
3. The is a nonchalant attitude to scoring in the Super 14 similar to that of scoring in basketball.
4. Southern fairies know f*** all about forwards play.

 

[Nickdnz]

Nice. So let me just get this right, and I do watch NH rugby myself (thanks ESPN for making it slightly easier, but please fire the f*cking USA commentator). We don't know how to defend, we don't know anything about forwards play and yet New Zealand, South Africa and Australia still seem to consistantly beat teams who's defences are better and forwards are better, and have often done so by winning by 30+ points. You can say "it's different in Internationals", but they're the same players playing in the S14, that keep dominating the forwards play, and if I remember correctly, NZ didn't concede a try in the NH tests...not bad for crappy defence.

Also, the promotion of attacking rugby is hardly a bad thing, and if trys can be scored via moving the ball around, all the better. I realise it may not be as thrilling as a 9-6 victory based on two penalties and a drop goal, however I think playing a game at pace has a certain charm in itself. Again I'm not actually apposed to NH rugby, it just gets on my nerves when jibes at how much better NH rugby is to SH rugby.

 

[Bullitt]

I never said anything about hemispheres. Nor did I mention test rugby (odd that whenever I point out the key faults of the Super 14, all anyone who wishes to defend it can do is bring up the All Blacks (or Boks on some occasions).

Also, a game doesn't need a high score to be brilliant. Watching a team defend it's tryline and not concede after wave-upon-wave of attack, or a perfectly executed rolling maul, can be just as entertaining or sometimes even better then any pre-practised backs move. In fact, a perfectly executed rolling-maul is the most exciting thing in sport IMO.

 

[gingergenius]

Old debate. From the Super 14 I've watched, many back 3 players have poor defensive skills. That being said, forwards in Europe tend to have poor offloading games.

Put this into the international arena, and they pick the guys who actually can tackle. SA had. Habana, Pietersen, Steyn. But beyond that... Chavhanga? Nokwe? Ndungane? Kirchner? Rose? Similarly NZ have had to put the likes of Kahui and Tuitavake out on the wing in recent years because your Masagas, Waqaseduaduas, Anesis etc. can't be trusted.

On to Cipriani... a great shame. Ball in hand, he's the best 10 in Europe. When he's in form and confident, his kicking game can match that. Unfortunately, since his injury he's not been in great form, nor has he been particularly confident. It's clear that he's not in Johnson's good books.

So, hopefully he can go out to Melbourne for 2011, play a season, and get himself playing the kind of rugby that he is capable of. After the season's finished, he can come back to Europe and ease himself back into things while everyone else has their eyes on the world cup. Then, maybe he'll be available to compete for an England spot come 2012 6Nations when Wilkinson will be well past it.

 

[Nickdnz]

Well, you're well and truly intitled to your opinion, and if you feel that close games with low scores which often the Heineken Cup and Guiness Premiership offer, is a more attractive way of playing the sport, by all means enjoy it. I admit there have been a few games so far this year which I have been thrilled with from the Heineken Cup, because of the low scores. However I still feel tries are the most attractive way of scoring points, and I don't think that the main way of scoring points is by taking penalty shots, for breaches in all ready over-complicated rules does any favours for the game of rugby.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I never said anything about hemispheres[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

4. Southern fairies know f*** all about forwards play.[/b]

The reason internationals are brought into it is because it is the only way of comparing the skill level of players playing in two seperate competitions. To say people in the S14 can't play well in the forwards, by extension means that the All Blacks who get their players from the S14, can't play forward play etc...Where as players who play in the Heineken Cup, and by your logic know the most about forward play and rock solid defence, the players should be able to defend as well in Internationals. Which raises the question, why can players who can't defend, win consistantly against players who can.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Feb 5 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Well, you're well and truly intitled to your opinion, and if you feel that close games with low scores which often the Heineken Cup and Guiness Premiership offer, is a more attractive way of playing the sport, by all means enjoy it. I admit there have been a few games so far this year which I have been thrilled with from the Heineken Cup, because of the low scores. However I still feel tries are the most attractive way of scoring points, and I don't think that the main way of scoring points is by taking penalty shots, for breaches in all ready over-complicated rules does any favours for the game of rugby.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE

I never said anything about hemispheres[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

4. Southern fairies know f*** all about forwards play.[/b]

The reason internationals are brought into it is because it is the only way of comparing the skill level of players playing in two seperate competitions. To say people in the S14 can't play well in the forwards, by extension means that the All Blacks who get their players from the S14, can't play forward play etc...Where as players who play in the Heineken Cup, and by your logic know the most about forward play and rock solid defence, the players should be able to defend as well in Internationals. Which raises the question, why can players who can't defend, win consistantly against players who can.
[/b][/quote]
Now you're being all sweeping an using that as an excuse from changing the point of debate from **** poor Super 14 defences to taking about the elite test teams. One thing the SANZAR nations get right is they actually pick the best players for the test squads, but that's a different debate.

Lets use some other examples of players switching their arenas:

Michelak - Brilliant although stiffled at Stade, steered the Sharks to S14 victory
Spencer - Ran rampant for years on end in the Super 14, got Saints relegated then warmed the bench at Gloucester when he changed codes.
Howlett - Arguably the best winger ever while a Blues player, largely anonymous for Munster.
Reihana - Criticised in NZ for his conservative style of play, yet regarded as one of the best players in the world now he's playing in conditions* which suit his style. (*I'll get onto that in a min).
Heymans - Was loudly praised as the worlds best prop in NZ, yet is getting bettered by juniors these days.
Latham - God like in the S14. Shite in the Premiership.
McAlistar - Absolutely amazing pre-Sale, but once he wasn't playing with rugby league levels of space he struggled. Much better now he's back in NZ.
Cullen - This wasn't the All Black who Munster signed, was it? Really?
Jack - Don't get me started. Started promisingly but was sacked for not being good enough in the end.
Caucau - Never scored in France. I mean, really, he never scored. Anything. Ever.
Lomu - Okay, that's not very fair of me!

*Also remember that the weather conditions in the different parts of the world affect how the game has developed in their respective areas. Europe is a much wetter area then Australasia or Africa, therefore it's heavier underfoot and the tighter style of play is much better suited to the conditions then. Percentage play isn't as prevalent as you'd be made to believe by John O'Neil. Conversely, the harder ground in the South lends itself to a much easier running game, meaning the players are generally more attuned to a cardio-based broken game. A lot of this explains the difference in ethos, the southern teams live by "we're going to score more then you" While the northern mindset tends to be "give them nothing". (The French of course are an enigma as they do whatever they feel like that morning).

It's horses for courses.

 

[Nickdnz]

I'm not using anythiong as an excuse. You claim that there is poor defence in the Super 14, however the same players execute better defence in international tests. I'm claiming the reason more trys are scored in Super 14, is because of a more positive attitude to attack, not due to " Southern fairies know f*** all about forwards play".

Mainy of your critisisms from Southern Hemisphare players I disagree with.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Michelak - Brilliant although stiffled at Stade, steered the Sharks to S14 victory
Spencer - Ran rampant for years on end in the Super 14, got Saints relegated then warmed the bench at Gloucester when he changed codes.
Howlett - Arguably the best winger ever while a Blues player, largely anonymous for Munster.
Reihana - Criticised in NZ for his conservative style of play, yet regarded as one of the best players in the world now he's playing in conditions* which suit his style. (*I'll get onto that in a min).
Heymans - Was loudly praised as the worlds best prop in NZ, yet is getting bettered by juniors these days.
Latham - God like in the S14. Shite in the Premiership.
McAlistar - Absolutely amazing pre-Sale, but once he wasn't playing with rugby league levels of space he struggled. Much better now he's back in NZ.
Cullen - This wasn't the All Black who Munster signed, was it? Really?
Jack - Don't get me started. Started promisingly but was sacked for not being good enough in the end.
Caucau - Never scored in France. I mean, really, he never scored. Anything. Ever.
Lomu - Okay, that's not very fair of me![/b]

Michelak - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnv9Sz_FFrk (explains it all), was put in charage of a good team, was hardly as good as you'd have him seem.
Spencer - Never really thought much of him anyway, however Spencer, like many of your players listed, were past their prime when they moved and could no longer get a test spot for the AB's.
Howlett - Hardly the best winger of time in my opinion, but he has done fine service for Munster, considering he is another wing past his prime.
Reihana - Left for the $$$, not because NZ didn't want him. Fine service for Northampton.
Heyman - Just no...he is leading a poor Newcastle team, and doing fairly well. Not best scrummaging ever, but considering Jon Golding is his propping partener, and the tight five in general are of poor standard, it's not suprising he's not dominating like he did when the tight five consisted of Anton Oliver and Keese Meeues.
Latham - Only thing combined with Gear keeping Worcester competitive, and considering he's 34, do you really expect him to dominate?
McAlister - Performed very well for Sale I thought...
Jack - Left back to NZ to try and gain a test spot, he didn't get sacked. Performed fairly well, didn't set the world on fire. Maybe form slump?
Cullen - Had knee surgery. Lost his pace. Wasn't the same player who was NZ's top try scorer. Despite this, all right survice when fit, but even he admitted he had to leave because he thought his form was unfair on the club.
Caucau - Umm, he was the top try scorer for two seasons, 2006 he was named France player of the year. He got lazy, however he was still pretty amazing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0svVz4kSWM

Many of your opinions on player performances seem a little harsh to say the least, and arn't really backed with much. I mean your entitled to your opinion, but I have to disagree with many of your player assessments. Good point on weather conditionings, which does effect the style of play.