I fully agree that Free Speech is an incredibly important thing; nigh-sacred even. I agree that includes the right to be offensive, even incredibly offensive - although it should be noted that there are all sorts of laws regarding things that go too far and regularly harm other people - and that this right must be protected.
I also fully agree that if you use that Free Speech to regularly and deliberately offend and provoke people, then a reaction cannot be a surprise, and that using Free Speech solely for those purposes is distasteful, troubling, possibly immoral.
I definitely agree with Tallshort that there are some double standards abounding here - but then I would also say that they are not the most important thing right now.
I fully agree that there are lots and lots of differences between our Muslim community and theirs, and that expecting us to be as successful as them just like that is wildly unrealistic. But I wasn't trying to say otherwise. What I was trying to say is that there is a definite concrete example of a well integrated Muslim population in a western country. That it is possible. That it can be done. That we shouldn't simply throw our hands up and say "They're Muslims, how on earth are we meant to integrate them". The fact that they're Muslims is a not an irresolvable problem; a problem, yes, but a conquerable one.
However, what I've read says you're off with your analysis. Most Muslim Americans are fairly recent arrivals - in 1980, you were getting estimates of 200k - 300k as opposed to estimates of 2.8m to 6m today, that points to serious immigration. However, you are right to point at the non-import of family units. Most Muslim immigrants arrive in the States for post-grad education and end up staying. They don't come with families, they don't import them. That's a difference and probably a key one.
True that they mostly have some level of university education and come from well off families, but they are still in ghettos of sorts; they usually live near each other Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims, they associate mainly with them. Most of their meaningful relationships and interactions are with people from the same ethnicity and religion, and not the broader British community, insofar as I can tell.
And yes, from what I can tell, there is a lot of issues with parents and other authority figures not being able to connect with them.
But you're right - poverty doesn't really factor into the British jihadi mindset. Apologies for being misleading on that.
I also fully agree that if you use that Free Speech to regularly and deliberately offend and provoke people, then a reaction cannot be a surprise, and that using Free Speech solely for those purposes is distasteful, troubling, possibly immoral.
I definitely agree with Tallshort that there are some double standards abounding here - but then I would also say that they are not the most important thing right now.
I fully agree that there are lots and lots of differences between our Muslim community and theirs, and that expecting us to be as successful as them just like that is wildly unrealistic. But I wasn't trying to say otherwise. What I was trying to say is that there is a definite concrete example of a well integrated Muslim population in a western country. That it is possible. That it can be done. That we shouldn't simply throw our hands up and say "They're Muslims, how on earth are we meant to integrate them". The fact that they're Muslims is a not an irresolvable problem; a problem, yes, but a conquerable one.
However, what I've read says you're off with your analysis. Most Muslim Americans are fairly recent arrivals - in 1980, you were getting estimates of 200k - 300k as opposed to estimates of 2.8m to 6m today, that points to serious immigration. However, you are right to point at the non-import of family units. Most Muslim immigrants arrive in the States for post-grad education and end up staying. They don't come with families, they don't import them. That's a difference and probably a key one.
True that they mostly have some level of university education and come from well off families, but they are still in ghettos of sorts; they usually live near each other Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims, they associate mainly with them. Most of their meaningful relationships and interactions are with people from the same ethnicity and religion, and not the broader British community, insofar as I can tell.
And yes, from what I can tell, there is a lot of issues with parents and other authority figures not being able to connect with them.
But you're right - poverty doesn't really factor into the British jihadi mindset. Apologies for being misleading on that.
