Changing of the laws?

[smartcooky]

ok gods gift to the reffing fraternity. look at law book and check every time tialat goes for bind , he doesn`t make it and puts hand on floor whilst italian quite rightly grabs jersey literally at top of arm reaching as far as he can to try and make the bind, so first offense by the rugby laws is that tialata does not bind therefore scrum cannot set and start . there in colour on youtube, and there in black and white in law book , just in case you don`t have one i copied relevant section. at best dickinson could have penalised each player alternatively, or just gone with law and penalised first offense. if you want to argue with that then you are a total ********.chuck abuse you get abuse back ok matey !!!
(d) Binding by tight head props. A tight head prop must bind on
the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the
left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop. The tight head
prop must grip the loose head prop’s jersey with the right hand
only on the back or side. The tight head prop must not grip the
chest, arm, sleeve or collar of the opposition loose head prop. The
tight head prop must not exert any downward pressure.

....That is a real laugh boyo. Your complete cock-ups are entertaining, if nothing else.

You are bleating on about how Tialata (the LOOSE-HEAD prop) is breaking the Laws, then to support that, you quote the binding law for the TIGHT-HEAD prop.

That makes me wonder whether you in fact understand the difference between the two.

However, what you completely fail to understand is that the Laws of the Game are not just about taking one Law in isolation and applying it. They are in fact a collection of guidelines; Laws are applied within the confines of materiality in the context of the game at hand, and always within the priority limits of Safety, Equity and Law....in that order! Any first year referee will tell you that... its one of the first things you are told when you attend you first Association/Society meeting.

To answer your post:

It is in fact, a very common practice for a prop to drop their bind if they do not get it right the first time, and the Law in fact allows them to do that.

Law 20.3 (e) Both the loose head and tight head props may alter their bind providing they do so in
accordance with this Law.

One of the ways props do this is to drop their hand to the ground momentarily, allowing them to steady themselves, This is especially so for the LOOSE-HEAD prop if they feel their opposing TIGHT-HEAD prop is pulling them down. Then they come back up to the correct bind. Dropping the arm is also a good way to measure that your shoulders are at least level with or above your hips.

Many scrum coaches (including myself) teach this technique.

Keep in mind that the requirement to bind is NOT immediate, props are allowed a little time to get the bind right before the ball is put in, then once it is in, the bind must be maintained.

italian quite rightly grabs jersey literally at top of arm reaching as far as he can to try and make the bind

The Italian TIGHT-HEAD PROP has a bent arm and its pointing downwards!!!! You cannot honestly believe that he is reaching as far as he possibly can.

In every scrum, he had a bent arm, grasping Black's upper arm, instead of binding where I have indicated with the red dots. He could easily reach either of those places, but he chooses not to because he knows that if he does, he will not be able to do what he his doing there; lifting the Black LOOSE-HEAD up and twisting him inwards.

It is interesting to note that a week later, the South African LOOSE-HEAD prop completely munted the Italian TIGHT-HEAD prop. Why? Because the referee, Alain Rolland (arguably the best scrum manager of all the Elite referees) insisted on correct binding, and forced the Italian front row to participate in a PROPER and LEGAL contest.

 

[Bargoedboy]

Smartcooky wrote and complained about my grammar !
I have run my analyses of those videos past a number of people, including a former South African provincial prop, who now lives in NZ and a Senior referee. I have also run it past members of an international rugby referees forum, which has a membership including English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Argentinian referees. Most [/COLOR]( I am not the only one who doesn’t agree then?) are in agreement. Interestingly, the South African prop picked up the same issue that Cymro did.

► The fact that the iRB Disciplinary Committee rescinded Tialata's yellow card proves it.
► The fact that Dickinson got an adverse report form the Match Assessor (NOT O'BRIEN!!!!) proves it.► The fact that he was sent for remedial scrum management raining [/COLOR](personally I would have Trained him) proves it.
► The fact that he was not subsequently appointed to any 6N or 3N matches proves it.
Yet he has been rated in the Top 3 SANZAR Referees after being appointed to a Semi-Final in Soweto. The appointments for the 2010 Finals series were based solely on merit, and not nationality.
So a very quick turnaround in quality!


Cymro also wrote same!

Personally I don't think you got that call right. The Italy [/COLOR](Italian?)THP did start of [/COLOR](off?) straight as Dickinson said, he is then correct about stepping out but not correct about driving down. For me Black LHP boar (bore, is the correct word you are looking for)in, whilst also binding on the underneath of the shirt, attempting to make sure that Italy(Italian?) THP collapses. I do also accept that the Italian THP is also binding illegally on the arm. At the end, it was half a dozen one way and half a dozen the other way on this one. The Best thing Dickinson should have done was reset the scrum, making clear for[/COLOR](to) both props to bind correctly and to hit and drive straight.

But the rest Dickinson as you said, got it in a right mess.

@Bargoedboy don't go writing in caps (capitals)and calling other members names...(.) it's as you would say …quite childish.

Kettle calling sauce-pan black I think.

What it must be like, for you to be so wonderful and perfect, with the only opinions that count!
Your own little web page for you to play on.
You sad little pedant.

Now one thing you have quoted has hit the nail right on the head, MOST, this infers not all refs agreed with you or O`Brien.
Therefore, it must mean we are looking at interpretations of the laws, not the absolute law.
Thank you I rest my case.
Sorry to all other posters, who have become frustrated by my refusal to back down to the great Smartcooky.
In the words of a very fine actress, “wot a ******` liberty!â€
(Ps, that was slang before you tell me you have a degree in literacy!)
The point I made about laws for THP was to show, what he was doing, not Tialata.
As for Altering bind, again to alter is to adjust, if Tialata has not made a bind by placing hand on floor, he is not engaging correctly and not making a bind. First penalty as you say should go safety first, if props do not bind, scrum will go down, one did bind. B)

 

[SelimNiai]

Is it just me or has this place become a little tetchy in the last few weeks.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Smartcooky wrote and complained about my grammar !
I have run my analyses of those videos past a number of people, including a former South African provincial prop, who now lives in NZ and a Senior referee. I have also run it past members of an international rugby referees forum, which has a membership including English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Argentinian referees. Most [/COLOR]( I am not the only one who doesn't agree then?) are in agreement. Interestingly, the South African prop picked up the same issue that Cymro did.

► The fact that the iRB Disciplinary Committee rescinded Tialata's yellow card proves it.
► The fact that Dickinson got an adverse report form the Match Assessor (NOT O'BRIEN!!!!) proves it.► The fact that he was sent for remedial scrum management raining [/COLOR](personally I would have Trained him) proves it.
► The fact that he was not subsequently appointed to any 6N or 3N matches proves it.
Yet he has been rated in the Top 3 SANZAR Referees after being appointed to a Semi-Final in Soweto. The appointments for the 2010 Finals series were based solely on merit, and not nationality.
So a very quick turnaround in quality!


Cymro also wrote same!

Personally I don't think you got that call right. The Italy [/COLOR](Italian?)THP did start of [/COLOR](off?) straight as Dickinson said, he is then correct about stepping out but not correct about driving down. For me Black LHP boar (bore, is the correct word you are looking for)in, whilst also binding on the underneath of the shirt, attempting to make sure that Italy(Italian?) THP collapses. I do also accept that the Italian THP is also binding illegally on the arm. At the end, it was half a dozen one way and half a dozen the other way on this one. The Best thing Dickinson should have done was reset the scrum, making clear for[/COLOR](to) both props to bind correctly and to hit and drive straight.

But the rest Dickinson as you said, got it in a right mess.

@Bargoedboy don't go writing in caps (capitals)and calling other members names...(.) it's as you would say …quite childish.

Kettle calling sauce-pan black I think.

What it must be like, for you to be so wonderful and perfect, with the only opinions that count!
Your own little web page for you to play on.
You sad little pedant.

Now one thing you have quoted has hit the nail right on the head, MOST, this infers not all refs agreed with you or O`Brien.
Therefore, it must mean we are looking at interpretations of the laws, not the absolute law.
Thank you I rest my case.
Sorry to all other posters, who have become frustrated by my refusal to back down to the great Smartcooky.
In the words of a very fine actress, "wot a ******` liberty!"
(Ps, that was slang before you tell me you have a degree in literacy!)
The point I made about laws for THP was to show, what he was doing, not Tialata.
As for Altering bind, again to alter is to adjust, if Tialata has not made a bind by placing hand on floor, he is not engaging correctly and not making a bind. First penalty as you say should go safety first, if props do not bind, scrum will go down, one did bind. B)

Do you really want me to have a go at you? Really?

Bargoedboy you act like SavageLez and need to learn to back down when you are in the wrong. You lost the argument and just leave it.

Going at my spelling and grammar is not such a smart idea. If we go through your posts there are far more mistakes and to point out mine is quite laughable. Even your post is a mess. Don't go attacking before ensuring that your post is all good and fine.

I'm getting tired of seeing people taking the thread on a tangent and its mainly some of the new guys. Stop being a WUM and grow up.

Is it just me or has this place become a little tetchy in the last few weeks.

Yep some of the new guys who have come onto the board are complete and utter WUM's and they don't know when to give up or when they are wrong.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Smartcooky wrote and complained about my grammar !
I have run my analyses of those videos past a number of people, including a former South African provincial prop, who now lives in NZ and a Senior referee. I have also run it past members of an international rugby referees forum, which has a membership including English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Argentinian referees. Most [/COLOR]( I am not the only one who doesn’t agree then?) are in agreement. Interestingly, the South African prop picked up the same issue that Cymro did.

► The fact that the iRB Disciplinary Committee rescinded Tialata's yellow card proves it.
► The fact that Dickinson got an adverse report form the Match Assessor (NOT O'BRIEN!!!!) proves it.► The fact that he was sent for remedial scrum management raining [/COLOR](personally I would have Trained him) proves it.
► The fact that he was not subsequently appointed to any 6N or 3N matches proves it.
Yet he has been rated in the Top 3 SANZAR Referees after being appointed to a Semi-Final in Soweto. The appointments for the 2010 Finals series were based solely on merit, and not nationality.
So a very quick turnaround in quality!


Cymro also wrote same!

Personally I don't think you got that call right. The Italy [/COLOR](Italian?)THP did start of [/COLOR](off?) straight as Dickinson said, he is then correct about stepping out but not correct about driving down. For me Black LHP boar (bore, is the correct word you are looking for)in, whilst also binding on the underneath of the shirt, attempting to make sure that Italy(Italian?) THP collapses. I do also accept that the Italian THP is also binding illegally on the arm. At the end, it was half a dozen one way and half a dozen the other way on this one. The Best thing Dickinson should have done was reset the scrum, making clear for[/COLOR](to) both props to bind correctly and to hit and drive straight.

But the rest Dickinson as you said, got it in a right mess.

@Bargoedboy don't go writing in caps (capitals)and calling other members names...(.) it's as you would say …quite childish.

Kettle calling sauce-pan black I think.

What it must be like, for you to be so wonderful and perfect, with the only opinions that count!
Your own little web page for you to play on.
You sad little pedant.

Now one thing you have quoted has hit the nail right on the head, MOST, this infers not all refs agreed with you or O`Brien.
Therefore, it must mean we are looking at interpretations of the laws, not the absolute law.
Thank you I rest my case.
Sorry to all other posters, who have become frustrated by my refusal to back down to the great Smartcooky.
In the words of a very fine actress, “wot a ******` liberty!â€
(Ps, that was slang before you tell me you have a degree in literacy!)
The point I made about laws for THP was to show, what he was doing, not Tialata.
As for Altering bind, again to alter is to adjust, if Tialata has not made a bind by placing hand on floor, he is not engaging correctly and not making a bind. First penalty as you say should go safety first, if props do not bind, scrum will go down, one did bind. B)

Do you really want me to have a go at you? Really?

Bargoedboy you act like SavageLez and need to learn to back down when you are in the wrong. You lost the argument and just leave it.

Going at my spelling and grammar is not such a smart idea. If we go through your posts there are far more mistakes and to point out mine is quite laughable. Even your post is a mess. Don't go attacking before ensuring that your post is all good and fine.

I'm getting tired of seeing people taking the thread on a tangent and its mainly some of the new guys. Stop being a WUM and grow up.

Is it just me or has this place become a little tetchy in the last few weeks.

Yep some of the new guys who have come onto the board are complete and utter WUM's and they don't know when to give up or when they are wrong.

 

[smartcooky]

Actually, boyo, I didn't criticise you spelling, just your grammar.

And by the way...I intended to spell "analyses" that way because it is the correct spelling in the context used!

I have run my analyses of those videos past a number of people,,,,

"analyses" (pronounced an-al-ee-sees) is the plural form of the word "analysis"

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Look it up if you don't believe me

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/analyses

Main Entry: anal·y·sis
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈna-lə-səs\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural anal·y·ses

There were two videos, therefore the plural forum is used... ergo "analyses"

QED

 

[Saints1]

Baregodboy, wind your neck in. TRF is a place of reasoned discussion. I don't care about whether you're wrong or right, I just care about your pretty agrressive attitude and deliberately obtuse tone. It's not you versus the world.

 

[cyRil]

Is it just me or has this place become a little tetchy in the last few weeks.

Suck my balls!!!

 

[lucky number 7]

 

[Haysie]

Holy ****! That is epic! Rep for bringing it up!

 

[cyRil]

Class

 

[Bargoedboy]

Well, where to start.
First off Cymro attacks my grammar, i return favour and now i am told, i shouldn`t do that.
Someone gives me abuse , i give it back, i am told i shouldn`t do that.
I should not disagree with Smartcooky because he is allways right , apparently.

So what are we left with, well a forum thats not actually a forum just a place of worship for top guys.
well count me out. Congratulations you have succeeded in what you set out to do.
Have the forum for what its worth, your opinions and your opinions only.

The whole issue of the laws is complex with many interpretations, not just from North to south, but between refs of same country. For me this is wrong, why should teams travelling from one game to next have to meet with refs to discuss how he is going to ref when we have one set of laws. It does not make sense. Some of my remarks may have been taken out of context but i stand by what i believe, that is the refs must have a uniform interpretation of laws, so no one team should gain advantage over another due to refs interpretation of law.
There is a major difference between North and South in how we want game to be played, nothing wrong with that provided we all play to same rules. Myself, i am not a fan of up the jumper boring rugby like England have been known to play , yet it has its place in the game, because they win that way within the laws.
How i wish Wales could learn how to close the game out by using maul after maul, kick after kick, rather than being losers in an exciting game.
Smartcooky i bow to your superior Knowledge of the law book , but not how you interpret it to suit your team!
One last question, how do you delete your own membership and profile?

 

[SelimNiai]

Its just he is right on this subject, you're not.

As for your posting layout it's damn hard work to read it if most of it is spelled wrong, is badly paragraphed etc.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Well, where to start.
First off Cymro attacks my grammar, i return favour and now i am told, i shouldn`t do that.
Someone gives me abuse , i give it back, i am told i shouldn`t do that.
I should not disagree with Smartcooky because he is allways right , apparently.

So what are we left with, well a forum thats not actually a forum just a place of worship for top guys.
well count me out. Congratulations you have succeeded in what you set out to do.
Have the forum for what its worth, your opinions and your opinions only.

The whole issue of the laws is complex with many interpretations, not just from North to south, but between refs of same country. For me this is wrong, why should teams travelling from one game to next have to meet with refs to discuss how he is going to ref when we have one set of laws. It does not make sense. Some of my remarks may have been taken out of context but i stand by what i believe, that is the refs must have a uniform interpretation of laws, so no one team should gain advantage over another due to refs interpretation of law.
There is a major difference between North and South in how we want game to be played, nothing wrong with that provided we all play to same rules. Myself, i am not a fan of up the jumper boring rugby like England have been known to play , yet it has its place in the game, because they win that way within the laws.
How i wish Wales could learn how to close the game out by using maul after maul, kick after kick, rather than being losers in an exciting game.
Smartcooky i bow to your superior Knowledge of the law book , but not how you interpret it to suit your team!
One last question, how do you delete your own membership and profile?

You play the victim yet you went out and attacked a member verbally completely incorrect because you had lost the argument. You dished it out and you got it back its quite simple be awkward to people then you will find others will be the same back. You need to grow a pair and stop looking to play the victim card. You were proven wrong ... simple as that. This forum has a range of people with various opinions, and its a good forum at that. People can argue well for a point then they get respected, but unfortunately you came and started insulting people then you expect to be loved when you were wrong.

Oh and im quite embarrassed for the fact that you are Welsh and seem to have behaved in this way. Frankly im quite embarrassed to be of the same nationality as someone like you.

You cry because I pointed out you have poor grammar and then you go off on one. Just chill and look at your posts, man they are dam hard to read! Even the (') are the wrong way round, no capitals after a full stop and the paragraph structure is all over the shop. It is very difficult to read.

Anyway goodbye.

 

[smartcooky]

His profile says he's 47, but his grammar, spelling and the overall immature wording of his posts tells me that hes is probably not more than 14 or 15. A lad with a serious attitude problem.

 

[Bargoedboy]

Cymro , read your own posts ref grammar. I am unhappy that you take a dig at my grammar when yours, and other posters are just as bad.
No one is off crying about it , just decided to show that your own posts and others can be held to account as well. Your last post being a classic example of bad spelling and grammar.
Smartcooky, i don`t agree with you, and i don`t expect you to worry about that, i don`t care what you think either.
As i said its about interpretation, notice you did not answer my point about other refs not agreeing with you either, which kind of proves it.
and by the way hes a lad should be he`s a lad ok.

 

[Saints1]

So do you want your profile deleting or not?

 

[Teh Mite]

Please remember The Rugby Forum is not 606, there fore mob-rule is not the be all and end all where opinions are concerned. you're allowed a different view to your peers, so the graturitous insults aren't necessary.

Agree to disagree then move on.

 

[smartcooky]

Everyone makes a few mistakes in grammar, but we don't just forget about it altogether!

Yes, I said "most" because I was being fair and honest about what they said. I could simply have said they ALL agreed, but that would have been a lie; one that would have been "safe" to tell too, because the boards are restricted (you need to hold a qualification before you are allowed access) so you would have had NO way of checking up on it.

For the record, I have had a total of 89 comments on the analyses over the four places I have submitted them. Only two disagreed, and only with part of them; one with #4, the other with #4 and #5. The one who disagreed with #5 thought Dickinson should have penalised Italy instead of resetting the scrum. His comment...

You are right on the money here (name removed). 17 Blue has tucked his left shoulder behind his hooker before the engage. There is but one place he can go like that, and it is not forward!

I hadn't spotted that myself, and did not include that in the analyses I posted here, because that would have meant altering it, which would again be dishonest.

 

[Haysie]

This is becoming a little tedious... I don't agree with people putting other people down because they have a little grasp of the traditional concept of the English language. Whether or not they type like a Gen X teenager l1ke diz is of little concern, as their opinion is as valid as the next persons. Can't we all just get along, and talk about rugby?