Champions Cup - Pool 3, Round 4 (Leicester, Toulon, Scarlets, Ulster)

[FrenchFan]

12 weeks. Ridiculous. What will it be for a far more serious offense like punch or a kick next time? Life?

this is disproportionate. But if EPRC dish out punishment out of proportion, it's their credibility as a ruling body that will come into question as they go along.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I like the rumour that it is a Clermont plot against Armitage now.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I like the rumour that it is a Clermont plot against Armitage now.

you read too many comic books my son!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

you read too many comic books my son!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a genuine theory on the Toulon sites.

I even forgot about that incident.

 

[Chistera]

12 weeks. Ridiculous. What will it be for a far more serious offense like punch or a kick next time? Life?

this is disproportionate. But if EPRC dish out punishment out of proportion, it's their credibility as a ruling body that will come into question as they go along.

I completely agree, the EPCR is harming its own reputation and legitimacy with such abuses. Plus, now that a precedent is set, a single foul word coming out the mouth a player could lead him to be sued by the opposing club, and then be sidelined for months.
Had it not been Armitage, the sentence would have much lessened, Armitage is nothing more than a hunting trophy for the EPCR.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I completely agree, the EPCR is harming its own reputation and legitimacy with such abuses. Plus, now that a precedent is set, a single foul word coming out the mouth a player could lead him to be sued by the opposing club, and then be sidelined for months.

1) He didn't get sued
2) TBF the reports are stating it was a bit more than just one single swear word.

 

[gaston le gaff]

It's a genuine theory on the Toulon sites.

I even forgot about that incident.

just read the article and you have to stop believing all you read this is pure Boudjellal no more no less its part of the gravy train that he leads so well, this is politics and show bizz plus a little sport all rolled into one, he's a class act, and great entertainment value but it stops there when he is irrate when he talks rugby he comes out with some very interesting stuff often worth listening too. but he has turned Toulon into something very special.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I certainly don't believe it, but Toulon fans are picking up on it which is entertaining. At least it gets them off our backs for a bit.

 

[Big Ewis]

I kind of agree, it is unfair that a player isn't allowed to just snap and shout back when abused - but if we allow any players to do that, we open the floodgates to allow all sorts of uncontrolled verbal fighting between fans and players - I think we can all agree we don't want that, so the sacrifice we have to make is that of the players' "right to reply", which is unfortunate but so it goes.

yes but that's looking at it the wrong way at the same time. You say "what if every player starts replying now", surely we all agree we don't want that, in itself it isn't too bad but it could lead to worse like guys actually threatening and really holding onto it after the match looking for the crowd members, etc...so it needs to be cut at the source. Right. But I say it's a wrong angle because as much as this aforementioned conclusion is clear (we can't let it leak), the abuse still continues. So arenas need to find a way to contain their crowds for abuse to not take place. That's the issue, really. The initiators, the problem starts with them. Without scum in the crowd, there are no problems: players just walk into the tunnel and come out 10min later.
The mere fundamental fact the initiators get away with everything, the debate stops here. That's a problem. More power to them if it just goes on. People are cowards, rotten inside. They won't think twice before vomiting their guts at icons, celebs. They don't realize they're attacking actual human feelings. No way in hell that tiny dick in the crowd says what he said to 1m90+, 90kg+ Delon Armitage's face. So the discipline needs to take place in the stands, not from the players.

A home crowd is a weapon in that it sets a hostile environment for the visiting squad, but if you know you're going there and your feelings will be hurt for sure; I mean people know what to say: they've got you at their mercy, they can pour salt in wounds, things that really hurt, on command. "Choker ! Coward ! Traitor !" those are all things that hurt a person. Players are supposed to take that abuse ? Hell no. That's tremendous stress, we're not in the Middle Ages anymore, there should be rules to protect players against such harmful, detrimental, negative acts.

 

[Every Time Ref]

yes but that's looking at it the wrong way at the same time. You say "what if every player starts replying now", surely we all agree we don't want that, in itself it isn't too bad but it could lead to worse like guys actually threatening and really holding onto it after the match looking for the crowd members, etc...so it needs to be cut at the source. Right. But I say it's a wrong angle because as much as this aforementioned conclusion is clear (we can't let it leak), the abuse still continues. So arenas need to find a way to contain their crowds for abuse to not take place. That's the issue, really. The initiators, the problem starts with them. Without scum in the crowd, there are no problems: players just walk into the tunnel and come out 10min later.

I don't disagree at all. The people in the crowd who do this are absolutely fundamentally the ones in the wrong. 100% I agree with your assertion here. And 100% they should be punished for it. My point is, that it is not just a question of what should be done but what can be done. Probably more could be done to identify and stop these people, but short of miking up the entire stand or employer an army of lipreaders, realistically a lot of it will be outside the control and jurisdiction of even the most conscientious club. Yes it would be great if it was all reported by conscientious and principled fans who overhear it (like the homophobic abuse at Twickenham), but again almost certainly that is an unachievable aim. I'm not agreeing with you from a moral standpoint in the slightest. From a practical one, the only really effective weapon the clubs and the various national unions, tournament governing bodies etc etc have to stop matches descending into shouting matches between players and fans is the power to sanction players.

The mere fundamental fact the initiators get away with everything, the debate stops here. That's a problem. More power to them if it just goes on. People are cowards, rotten inside. They won't think twice before vomiting their guts at icons, celebs. They don't realize they're attacking actual human feelings. No way in hell that tiny dick in the crowd says what he said to 1m90+, 90kg+ Delon Armitage's face. So the discipline needs to take place in the stands, not from the players.

A bit of French philosophy there ... l'enfer, c'est les autre, n'est-ce pas?

 

[Big Ewis]

A bit of French philosophy there ... l'enfer, c'est les autre, n'est-ce pas?

ughh...Sartre can suck my dick from Socialist Purgatory where he's stuck in atm, but that was the one good quote from em. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to spoil your fancy intellectual reference there, but Jean-Paul and I aren't pals, I prefer a certain Martin Heidegger from the other side of the borders from his contemporaries...

Anyways of course it would be difficult to realize, but something needs to be done about those toxic fans. At least when the players are close to the stands, so when they're walking in or out of the tunnel, there should be agents with black shades around for that kind of abuse standing with laser-disintegrators, I don't know I can't come up with anything tangible I'm just a fan, I'd need to look at the logistics of it, go into an actual stadium and experience a live match and analyze the acoustics of it; but crowd members should know there's a real risk in opening their foul trap, not just hang out there in all impunity knowing they're untouchable. A life ban if identified, something...you know, just scaring someone shiitless with an incredibly severe sanction can prevent lots from happening. The problem with this is they'd maybe lose a bit of love from their public and a club needs its crowd, that's how it exists.
So I dunno. I say two men in black with noisy crickets and state-of-the-art auditory detection technology.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Right I have been reading through the comments so I ask this question, What was Actually said ? Not what might have been said or what people think could have been said.

 

[gaston le gaff]

exactly Mon Le Saffycen, this is the problem!!!!!!!!!! no where can this be found so how can you ban someone for 12 weeks when no one seems to know what was said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

We will find out soon enough.

One of the things being reported is that there was inconsistencies in Armitage's own argument.


Will be a interesting read.

 

[gaston le gaff]

as said above the ban exists already but no one knows the truth, sounds a bit like the old witch justice, hang them if guilty, and if innocent, in the ducking chair till they drown!!!!!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Armitage incident published.

Published http://www.epcrugby.com/images/content/Written_decision_-_Delon_Armitage.pdf

Seems like Toulon were telling porkies about "Abuse being thrown at him".

12 weeks does seem harsh imo but his own personal record goes against him.

Don't get why Armitage or anyone in the Toulon set up didn't say what was said to him if he was trying to play the victim, IMO he should of either played the Victim and said what was supposedly said (If it actually happened like that) or been remorseful about it, even just to the judges.

Armitage's trouble is he has a naturally dislikeable persona.

IMO 4 weeks max.

 

[goodNumber10]

i'm actually inclined to belive his account of things to be honest... the F**ck off, and shooing away dismissivley - i can totally get that. poor it was in the vicinity of kids, but i do kind of understand what it is he's trying to say he did.

He's paid the price for his own behaviour though.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

i'm actually inclined to belive his account of things to be honest... the F**ck off, and shooing away dismissivley - i can totally get that. poor it was in the vicinity of kids, but i do kind of understand what it is he's trying to say he did.

He's paid the price for his own behaviour though.

I can believe it but I guess the Judges felt his evidence wasn't strong enough.

Wonder what Toulon will do now?

 

[goodNumber10]

wave their hands around, talk very loudly and ultimately do nothing

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Armitage ban reduced to 8 weeks 9th Feb when he can play again.