Champions Cup - Pool 1, Round 4 (Clermont, Munster, Sale, Saracens)

[Big Ewis]

unbelievably, unbelievably lucky result for Munster. This should've been a hiding on the scoreboard.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well lads here and absolutely down but in reality we tried our best and put we aren't at that level. We met the top level in Europe and we just aren't there. Clermont are a good team and well we will always battle. No complaints and while our scrum struggled for the last 60mins John Ryan manned up and stuck at it and did his best for a man thrown in at deep end. And well effort from all them lads was remarkable.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think it was Shaun Edwards before the game asking whether last week was a one off or if Munster just didn't have the physicality to live with the top teams and saying "we'll know after this match" - it seems like he's been answered. Great spirit by Munster, and typical (almost cliched) that they managed to somehow take a bonus point out of, apparently, sheer bloody-mindedness, but doesn't look like they're good enough.

Thought Hanrahan looked pretty good - don't follow Pro12 so limited data to work with, but where does he stand in the unresolved Irish midfield debate? Saying that, there was a definite gulf in class between the centre pairings, between the backs in general really. Pleased to see my old friend Abendanon having a good game, I hear he's been having a good time over there. Fair play to him, he's a cracking player who suits their style. Always thought he might have had more England caps, but maybe that's just my bias.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think it was Shaun Edwards before the game asking whether last week was a one off or if Munster just didn't have the physicality to live with the top teams and saying "we'll know after this match" - it seems like he's been answered. Great spirit by Munster, and typical (almost cliched) that they managed to somehow take a bonus point out of, apparently, sheer bloody-mindedness, but doesn't look like they're good enough.

Thought Hanrahan looked pretty good - don't follow Pro12 so limited data to work with, but where does he stand in the unresolved Irish midfield debate? Saying that, there was a definite gulf in class between the centre pairings, between the backs in general really. Pleased to see my old friend Abendanon having a good game, I hear he's been having a good time over there. Fair play to him, he's a cracking player who suits their style. Always thought he might have had more England caps, but maybe that's just my bias.

Post World Cup man I'd imagine, hasn't been given the game time this season behind a vastly inferior player in Hurley. He's not as good a 12 as Madigan, Olding or Marshall yet but has more potential than all but Olding in my opinion so they'll keep each other modest in years to come I'd imagine.

 

[munstermuffin]

Post World Cup man I'd imagine, hasn't been given the game time this season behind a vastly inferior player in Hurley. He's not as good a 12 as Madigan, Olding or Marshall yet but has more potential than all but Olding in my opinion so they'll keep each other modest in years to come I'd imagine.

JJ will be 10 soon enough won't be left 12. Also he just needs to better his attitude which he has and improve decision making. Again today 1 or 2 chips/dinks blocked but he's set for a hell of a lot more gametime.

 

[Every Time Ref]

JJ will be 10 soon enough won't be left 12. Also he just needs to better his attitude which he has and improve decision making. Again today 1 or 2 chips/dinks blocked but he's set for a hell of a lot more gametime.

Isn't Madigan seen as a potential ten as well?

 

[Big Ewis]

well there's no need to dissect this game. Which is fine by me anyways, I'm bad with blood and guts and stuff...
Let's be fair, a gulf between these two teams, and not an Arabian one. Thomond Park was not an accident, and not to be redundant but this one should've been a blowout: not even in the great potential and the what-ifs based on Clermont's form, but based on what actually happened. This should've been winning bonus for Clermont all night long, end of.

What I take away from this, going forward rather than spreading jaunard semen over my face about this win:
- Clermont's defense is otherwordly. It's near perfect. It reacts accordingly to every single different situation, it's collectively intelligent, when individuals take risks they succeed at it, they move up fast, can rush you into any of losing the ball or committing mistakes or put you on the back foot, they're top class at the breakdown and their whole pack can really turn over (Kayser, Domingo, 'Cuddles', Vahaa, Fritz Lee, Chouly, Lapandry).

- They're by far the best attacking team I've seen in Europe right now. Fofana will exploit any hole he sees to the point where I'd be terrified in person of even bending over at a 10° angle with him even at the other end of the room. Nakaitaci is becoming a legit Napo Nalaga, huuuuuge game what a try, bonifies every situation almost. The forwards insure superb continuity and quickness without giving away grunt and pure forward ability. Guys like even monsters Cudmore or Zirak are adept passers.

- The scrum: Domingo again this weekend took the entire Munster pack forward on his own on one scrum. His technique is off the charts, even with these new laws that penalize smaller units, he's found ways to be Thomas Domingo. I don't know how consistent he can be now, compared to before, but he and an aging Zirak can still hold the house together. Add to that academy products TH Clément Ric is slowly starting to come into his own now; and LH Raphaël Chaume seriously looks like the next Domingo - won't be as dominant but in his scrummaging form and quality.

- Add excellent discipline overall. - could hear the coaches sidelined yelling "discipline !!!" in heated moments.

They were always going to be top 5 favorites in this Cup anyways, but their superb Top 14 season, the heights of their potential right now, the double confirmation against Munster...they do look better with Azéma than the Cotter-led Clermont, I'll say it.

With Parra showing some excellent passages but also comically rusty plays also, returning to actual form - and young new-addition Lopez who'll only get better and better as it goes; the sky's the limit for them. I'm not sure what they lack...goal kicking maybe, which I can't imagine Lopez will remain in that slump for long knowing the kicker he is.

This is the scary part for Clermont: they're looking all too good right now.......reminiscent of past experiences, history tends to repeat itself.

 

[Every Time Ref]

From what I've seen in Europe. Clermont look easily the couilles du chien of French rugby they look far superior to Toulon. I see that Toulon are top of the league and Clermont second - how are they both playing? Clermont traditionally struggle away from home do they not, is that the story this year?

I think if I had to choose a favourite French team I'd go for Clermont, they play some really lovely stuff and they have Fofana and Abendanon who are two of my favourites, not to mention Julien Bonnaire who has the Frenchest-sounding name in the world.

 

[Tony Manx]

Munster are really lacking at 10 and in the centres, Keatley isn't cut out for this level.

HaHa...............the new O'Gara...............he saved you (no doubt) lovely backside!!!!!!

Munster are just fabulouso at keeping hanging in there and hanging in there and hanging in there!!

They have such tenacity and never, never give up but Clermont, dear Clermont you are, and I am soooo sorry Mods, e***** s****!

You had that match won about five times, Lee was brilliant and totally and utterly useless.

How does a team with a scrum that is completely dominant and the best back line in Europe...............lose that match?

Well done, fantastically well done Munster and enjoy your evening but am not sure that you will get much further in this competition (so I suppose your season would then be over really)!!!

From what I've seen in Europe. Clermont look easily the couilles du chien of French rugby they look far superior to Toulon. I see that Toulon are top of the league and Clermont second - how are they both playing? Clermont traditionally struggle away from home do they not, is that the story this year?

I think if I had to choose a favourite French team I'd go for Clermont, they play some really lovely stuff and they have Fofana and Abendanon who are two of my favourites, not to mention Julien Bonnaire who has the Frenchest-sounding name in the world.

Do not base your thoughts on Toulon solely on this season so far!

Giteau coming back will be huge for them and they will be challenging Clermont at the end of the season and I think that they, with Saints, are the teams to challenge for this competition and, without Saints, for the Top 14! Which one is best......one each of those two competitions would be great!!!

I just hope that that North London load of oiks are nowhere to interrupt my projections.....but they just might!!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

HaHa...............the new O'Gara...............he saved you (no doubt) lovely backside!!!!!!

I'm struggling to understand this! Was he ever dubbed the new O'Gara or are you saying he's not cut out for European rugby like O'Gara? Because 27 year old Keatley isn't a patch on 27 year old O'Gara... or 32 year old O'Gara!

I back Munster to beat Sarries to be honest, they have a set of testicles far superior in size than the Londoners!

 

[Tony Manx]

I'm struggling to understand this! Was he ever dubbed the new O'Gara or are you saying he's not cut out for European rugby like O'Gara? Because 27 year old Keatley isn't a patch on 27 year old O'Gara... or 32 year old O'Gara!

I back Munster to beat Sarries to be honest, they have a set of testicles far superior in size than the Londoners!

That was more a quote from the commentators rather than my view which is somewhat useless as never really followed his progress but was impressed with his kicking today!!! Him on ASM side (even at hooker) and you guys are toast!!!!

I will be supporting you in North London and hope you smash those smug so and so's all over the pitch but......................who knows!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That was more a quote from the commentators rather than my view which is somewhat useless as never really followed his progress but was impressed with his kicking today!!! Him on ASM side (even at hooker) and you guys are toast!!!!

I will be supporting you in North London and hope you smash those smug so and so's all over the pitch but......................who knows!!

Oh right and agreed, ASM were superior in every aspect of the game after the 15 minute mark but decided that they should follow the champions formula of bottling the bonus point! The bonus point for Munster is huge and, Munster an inch, they'll generally take a mile and then some! Also what's with this you? Don't associate me with this crowd, I'm a proud Leinster man struggling under the ignorant tyrant that is Matt O'Connor!

 

[Tony Manx]

Also what's with this you? Don't associate me with this crowd, I'm a proud Leinster man struggling under the ignorant tyrant that is Matt O'Connor!

Ah come on!! You have to support the team of your country unless they are against your team!!! This has to be especially true in dear old Ireland where you and they provide the Irish team apart from the odd Ulster player occasionally!!!!

(That is NOT intended as a political comment!!)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ah come on!! You have to support the team of your country unless they are against your team!!! This has to be especially true in dear old Ireland where you and they provide the Irish team apart from the odd Ulster player occasionally!!!!

(That is NOT intended as a political comment!!)

Very true but I would never say "we" when talking about Munster like I do Leinster. I'll support Munster, begrudgingly at times, over any foreign side and Ulster unless them losing benefits Leinster. Saying "you" in this case would be like me doing the same to you when addressing Bayonne though!

 

[Tony Manx]

Very true but I would never say "we" when talking about Munster like I do Leinster. I'll support Munster, begrudgingly at times, over any foreign side and Ulster unless them losing benefits Leinster. Saying "you" in this case would be like me doing the same to you when addressing Bayonne though!

Take the point my man, take the point!!!

Who are Bayonne by the way..............we never mention such words!!!!!

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads back in Irish soil and well just seen the Ulster result. We need Ulster to beat Leicester and it'll really help both Leinster and us but just read through a few comments and dare I say a few things.
1. Teams who peak in Dec/Jan don't win competitions but it's about timing. Clermont were flying it last year at this time and well Twickenham is still the result.
2. I'm just reading about this dominant scrum but well we were on our 3rd choice TH prop playing LH and we did well for first half there.
3. People may write us off but Sarries will be a battle we can win and I think we still have huge game in us. Add in if the Irish teams can get to April then they'll have their injuries cleared and we will be confident on 1 off games.

Regards my comments on JJ I meant it as in he will be starting 10 more now although if he gets put 12 it'll be ok as he needs to get his decision making better. Madigan is a super player but I don't think he will get much better at kicking and he's all the attributes to be an amazing 12. Although he's a good 10 but he won't be a starter as Sexton is back next year and well Gopperth seems to be undroppable

 

[Big Ewis]

From what I've seen in Europe. Clermont look easily the couilles du chien of French rugby they look far superior to Toulon. I see that Toulon are top of the league and Clermont second - how are they both playing? Clermont traditionally struggle away from home do they not, is that the story this year?

I think if I had to choose a favourite French team I'd go for Clermont, they play some really lovely stuff and they have Fofana and Abendanon who are two of my favourites, not to mention Julien Bonnaire who has the Frenchest-sounding name in the world.

One of the things that impress me the most about this Clermont side is their consistency, and that on the road as well. Going over to some club's fortress, the hostile environment of even the "smaller clubs" (Oyonnax, La Rochelle...), and still being able to come out with points each time, and winning away like that, for the intensity of this league that's just special. Even last year they wouldn't do it quite like this season.
Toulon will make the argument they would be just as consistent; just they've had the most turmoil lineup wise in possibly all of Europe. They're lucky enough they're rich as hell and their procurement department is amazing that when Giteau and la Mich go down they can just go and get themselves a battle-ready Nicolas Sanchez, one of the top 10's in the world.

I see what you're saying as a neutral who's watched Toulon and then Clermont over a few weekends in the Euro Cup. Clermont, as I've just elucidated in my previous post, look flawless. They just really do. Everything they do (both Top 14 and Euro) is perfectly measured, efficient and intelligently weighed - from lineup rotation to defensive schemes and attacking direction.

I'd say this season looks a whole lot again like 2013 (rather than last year, 2014). Clermont are overwhelming golden warriors and Toulon look like the dangerous red and black pirates with a nasty attitude. Right now, they're both crazy good tbh, the Tigers and Munster this weekend were not bad teams, *at all* - they were just disconcertingly easily outplayed. Both scores should've been heaps higher for the home team, too.
They're just too brilliantly coached and conditioned, and whatever they have on the roster, you'll be sure they'll squeeze almost everything out of, as opposed to other clubs who aren't getting the best out of their guys collectively.

But back to the Top 14 season:
it'll come as a surprise to you that Toulon lead the league in tries scored (367 points and 44 tries in 12 games) vs Clermont's 3rd place 312pts and 29 tries. (Bordeaux second, Tony ).
Defensively though, the table shifts: Clermont first and Toulon third (Montpellier is 2nd, surprisingly..).

Record wise, they're identical:
5W and 1L at home, and 3W and 3L away.

An important 'ingredient' is Toulon hasn't had its major slip this year and doesn't look like they will - Clermont got demolistroyed in Bordeaux (51-21 - 6 tries to 2). Flashes of the "choking" reputation, the tries piling up, piling up...almost reminiscent of the Sarries games last year. So perhaps that weak fiber still is deeply planted somewhere in Clermont's DNA, where Toulon *always* come through and don't shy away from big moments.

 

[Wendigo7]

If I was one of those 2 sides I'd avoid Saints if I could. Saints are very much capable of taking either out on home turf.

Away no chance, but if Saints get 2 home knockout draws as expected, at least 1 of the 2 will have to go there and win which is a ****ing tall order. Still Clermont, Saints and Toulon are the pick of the pack and a bit better than everyone else for me.