British & Irish Lions vs Emirates Lions

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not sure credit in the bank has much to do with this they were selected for this tour and Gats is willing to give them the opportunity to find form and get up to speed, he's giving them that, if he wasn't bringing them with such a limited squad would be pretty silly.

That was the same reasoning EJ used and it was an utter failure. Gatland is trying the same and they still aren't finding form. If a whole Autumn nations cup and 6 nations isn't enough time to find form then what is? The calls for Farrell and the Vunipolas to be dropped until they find form are a year old now and in that year none of them have even come close to proving they are back on form...

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

What I find ridiculous is it clearly didn't work for England and EJ, so why does Gatland think he can make a difference?

Lots of things don't work for England and EJ - Simmonds, Daly (both of which made decent impacts and Simmonds will have a good match come Wednesday)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

That was the same reasoning EJ used and it was an utter failure. Gatland is trying the same and they still aren't finding form. If a whole Autumn nations cup and 6 nations isn't enough time to find form then what is? The calls for Farrell and the Vunipolas to be dropped until they find form are a year old now and in that year none of them have even come close to proving they are back on form...

In fairness though, Gatland has plenty of options besides the Saracens lot. If Daly didn't perform at 15 for England then all EJ had was the unestablished Malins. If Daly doesn't perform for the Lions then no worries, Gatland's got a handful of other world class backs to choose from. It's worth trying to play people into contention if you have a handful of other suitable options; not if they're your only option.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

In fairness though, Gatland has plenty of options besides the Saracens lot. If Daly didn't perform at 15 for England then all EJ had was the unestablished Malins. If Daly doesn't perform for the Lions then no worries, Gatland's got a handful of other world class backs to choose from. It's worth trying to play people into contention if you have a handful of other suitable options; not if they're your only option.

If Daly didn't perform we had Watson and Brown as perfectly capable options with Goode as another possibility if really desperate. EJ's refusal to play players isn't the same as not having players available.

We had alternatives at 1 for Mako, at 8 for Billy V, at 12 for Farrell and at 15 for Daly. The reason our choices were so limits was Jones' stubbornness first and foremost.

 

[Jimbo]

That was the same reasoning EJ used and it was an utter failure. Gatland is trying the same and they still aren't finding form. If a whole Autumn nations cup and 6 nations isn't enough time to find form then what is? The calls for Farrell and the Vunipolas to be dropped until they find form are a year old now and in that year none of them have even come close to proving they are back on form...

But surely that's a debate for the overall lions selection not one for a match selection specifically, if players tour you expect them to feature, this after all was not one of the series games I'm not sure why u are surprised at their inclusion in this game given their on tour….

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But surely that's a debate for the overall lions selection not one for a match selection specifically, if players tour you expect them to feature, this after all was not one of the series games I'm not sure why u are surprised at their inclusion in this game given their on tour….

I'm not surprised at their inclusion in the game, I'm surprised at their inclusion in the tour.

 

[ncurd]

I'm not surprised at their inclusion in the game, I'm surprised at their inclusion in the tour.

Yup shouldn't be there Itoje was the one Saracens player who wasn't shocking in the 6 nations (I'd of still taken Sincks) and the rest have stunk up the joint for far longer. They've been playing on past reputations since the world cup and they shouldn't be playing international rugby let alone the Lions.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Obviously there will be an element of Gatlands ego that will come into play and how he'll back him and his skills/knowledge to turn around people's form, but also it's also fair to say that we're talking about a totally different set of conditions (namely it's a completely different side to England with different tactics, setups, coaches, philosophy etc etc) so imo you can't just go "well they've been **** for England therefore they're going to be the exact same **** for the Lions" I mean, it may turn out to be the case but you can't pretend that changing everything about these players environments are going to lead to exactly the same results either.

 

[General Melchett]

Gatland is a very conservative and unadventurous coach who is obsessed with picking players who have delivered for him in the past even if they aren't in form and there are better alternatives out there. Farrell is a prime example - he is in the squad because he kicked a penalty that saved Gatland's arse four years ago. My old man is a bit similar - has only ever bought Ford Mondeos for the past 20 years and refuses to try anything else.

I love how Hamish Watson (who was also the form 7 four years ago) is proving why Gatland made a mistake by not picking him 4 years ago. Gatland cherry picked one defeat at Twickenham (similar to what he did with James Ryan v La Rochelle) to justify not selecting him.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

Talking about form is so overrated. If you had a coach who only ever picked the in-form player for each position, regardless of anything else, the team wouldn't be very successful at all. There's more to winning that having the best player in each position and setting them free

 

[ncurd]

Which is why the players weren't dropped immediately but were now talking a year and a half of looking rubbish. Bad form is one thing, terminal decline is another.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Obviously there will be an element of Gatlands ego that will come into play and how he'll back him and his skills/knowledge to turn around people's form, but also it's also fair to say that we're talking about a totally different set of conditions (namely it's a completely different side to England with different tactics, setups, coaches, philosophy etc etc) so imo you can't just go "well they've been **** for England therefore they're going to be the exact same **** for the Lions" I mean, it may turn out to be the case but you can't pretend that changing everything about these players environments are going to lead to exactly the same results either.

No but you can say they have bee consistently **** in every international they have played for a year and question what is the positive argument that can be made for their inclusion other than that they might stop playing ****? We aren't talking players who have a little blip but then turn it around, we are talking players who have consistently failed to perform for over a year and, here's the most important bit, the aspects of their game that stand out as particularly bad have been known about for even longer. Farrells **** poor tackling technique has been with him his entire adult career, he has never fixed it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

No but you can say they have bee consistently **** in every international they have played for a year and question what is the positive argument that can be made for their inclusion other than that they might stop playing ****? We aren't talking players who have a little blip but then turn it around, we are talking players who have consistently failed to perform for over a year and, here's the most important bit, the aspects of their game that stand out as particularly bad have been known about for even longer. Farrells **** poor tackling technique has been with him his entire adult career, he has never fixed it.

But this is the point, you may find it unsatisfactory but the argument is, they might stop playing as poorly as they have.

How many times, in a multitude of sports, have we seen certain individual players struggle at one club only to be sold to another and they flourish. Now, I'm not saying that will be the case with Mako, Farrell etc but it's not heard of, in fact, it's really very common.

Look at Harlequins, a change of staff and all of a sudden they're premiership champions and that's just the coaches. With the Lions Mako and co have new teammates as well as new coaches and a new environment to hopefully motivate them.

Gatland will be questioning the same things you are anyway and it doesn't look like Mako, Farrell or George are going to be starters, in fact there's a good chance they won't even make the match day squad unless they perform in the opportunities they are given so we can mitigate the risk that way.

You might be right and they might be done at this level but if that's the case then they won't be starting a test so there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But this is the point, you may find it unsatisfactory but the argument is, they might stop playing as poorly as they have.

How many times, in a multitude of sports, have we seen certain individual players struggle at one club only to be sold to another and they flourish. Now, I'm not saying that will be the case with Mako, Farrell etc but it's not heard of, in fact, it's really very common.

Look at Harlequins, a change of staff and all of a sudden they're premiership champions and that's just the coaches. With the Lions Mako and co have new teammates as well as new coaches and a new environment to hopefully motivate them.

Gatland will be questioning the same things you are anyway and it doesn't look like Mako, Farrell or George are going to be starters, in fact there's a good chance they won't even make the match day squad unless they perform in the opportunities they are given so we can mitigate the risk that way.

You might be right and they might be done at this level but if that's the case then they won't be starting a test so there's nothing to worry about.

Yes it could happen, but then again it just as easily couldn't. Some thing are more easily turned around than others. The players currently underperforming for England have no history of playing better for the Lions than they have for England.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yes it could happen, but then again it just as easily couldn't. Some thing are more easily turned around than others. The players currently underperforming for England have no history of playing better for the Lions than they have for England.

Wait and see I guess. Don't get me wrong, I have no desire to see Farrell in the match day squad (though he probably will be as 12 cover) just saying it's not a sure thing they flop. Fingers crossed they pull their finger out.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Form is temporary, class it permeant...................

But how long do you put up with players playing crap until they come back in form?
Daly looked alright when he come on to be fair, Farrell is Farrell. He's not suited to how the lions used him on Saturday but I don't see how he fits in the test team at the moment.

 

[Jakedood]

So that was an interesting game, some players really stood out, other kinda melded into the background and some really interesting looks into how the lions are looking to play

First off, I dont like to judge wingers on how many tries they score, and give the creator of the try more credit for committing defenders, offloads or breaking the line, especially as 3/4 of Adams were walk ins. That being said, the massive hit in the buildup to his 3rd try, and the finish for the first were very good, and he's put his hand up for selection
LRZ showed pure gas, and although received less of the ball after that, in part due to Farrell/Harris not really getting the ball out to them too often. He even tried to join in in midfield and got melted a few times, but kudos for the effort
Farrell looked poor, but there was one phase of play with a delightful offload from Mako that showed what he does at 12, lurking behind ball carriers for those behind the runner passes.
Harris was decent at 13, and Hogg the same at 15, though nothing massive to shout about in the context of a poor team
Itoje, Lawes (Oddly) and Watson carried brilliantly
Jonny Hill is an amalgamation of idiotic penalties and half decent play
Finally, Elliot Daly looked really really sharp, and at 13, I just wonder if he can play his way into a shirt if he shows that sort of ability throughout the tour. Didnt make a wrong decision in attack or defence

Style wise, you can see the Lions are really looking to move the point of contact at the line, and have those options in place to carry, tip on or out the back on nearly every play. The ball carriers are making a real effort to implement their footwork at the line as well, so there are less big hard carries into shoulders and more neat little handsy plays. It looks good, and defensively they seem to be getting hard off the line a little less than they did v AB's, and drifting a little more to stop SA getting one v one potentially in the wide channels

 

[MikeTheNative]

The back 5 are all looking decent to be fair, I wouldn't mind any of them starting.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yes it could happen, but then again it just as easily couldn't. Some thing are more easily turned around than others. The players currently underperforming for England have no history of playing better for the Lions than they have for England.

The thing is - it was a gamble, a risk.
Someone taking a risk, that doesn't pay off has to expect the criticism. Equally, they've earned plaudits if it does come off.

Equally, each player has they're own risk / reward balance.
Mako has been poor for 18 months now; so was a big risk - the alternative to Mako would (should) have been Marler; who's better than Mako anywa. So it was a big risk, with no particular upside, but a big potential downside.
Itoje played well in the 6N, and is genuinely head and shoulders above the alternatives; so the risk was low - The alternative to Itoje would (should) have been Gray/Ryan; who are a step below him. So it was a small risk, with a high potential upside and low potential downside.
Billy has been poorish for 24-30 months now, with the last 12 months being frankly bad form, he also has known fitness / motivation issues; he is a huge risk - The alternative to Billy would have been... erm... nobody really, there's no-one else in world rugby who replicates what Billy does when he's in form, it's really not obvious who'd have taken his place if he wasn't invited. So it was a huge risk, with a huge potential upside, and no particular downside.

Farrell has been in poorish form for 12-18 months, and has ever been as good as his hype (though he does have some benefits off-field in leading the mindset); so was a significant risk - the alternatives to Farrell (on field) would (should) have been Ford / Sexton at FH or Slade at centre; all 3 are better than Farrell (though the former two weren't really fit to tour). So Farrell was a significant risk, who's potential upsides are mostly off the pitch, but small downsides as the alternatives aren't fit, and within the squad Biggar does what Farrell does, better.
Daly has been out of position and in poor form since he switched to FB. He's a big risk because he's not been taken to play the position he usually plays these days. He's a good centre and a very good winger when in form; and given that, his quality and rewards could switch on as easily as putting him in the right shirt (probably #23) - I realy don't know who'd have gone if he hadn't, but there aren't realy any names fro the back 4 who leap out as being harshly denied a tour spot. He's a risk, but it's impossible to judge how big, with big potential upsides, and kunknown potential downsides.


For me, Itoje and Daly are risks that were absolutely worth taking, Billy probably worth taking, even with a low chance of paying off.
On-field, Farrell probably wasn't worth taking, but would probably have had the call up after Ford / Sexton fail their medicals. Off-field is impossible for us fans to judge. Overall, worth taking. Either way, there was absolutely no chance of Gatland taking both Russell and Ford; he's simply allergic to the way those 2 play rugby. Either would only have gone because you need 3 FHs.
Mako was simply a bad call; and even if he does find form on tour, he still wouldn't have been as useful as his obvious replacement.

 

[MikeTheNative]

edit - wrong thread