Border Reivers to be disbanded apparently

[Prestwick]

Sell the damn franchise off and be done with it.

This is what happens when these communist style systems where the Union commands everything from the center hit one major problem: Money.

To set in their ways to go the whole hog and go fully professional and privatise the clubs and abandon this curious mix of amateurism and professionalism....amateurism with a human face if you will.

If any of Scotland's three 'professional' clubs (only in the way that the Union pays the players, nothing else) can hope to survive is by being privatised.

 

[D DAN]

I would have thought that you'd care out of interest for the game at a national level or is your club side more important to you?
[/b]

You are dead right An Tarbh Gunner should care about the Borders as should all Scottish rugby fans. Gunner you are also correct in as much as most Borderers dont support the team but the SRU where warned about this right at the start and any potential buyer for the franchise(should the SRU change their minds) would be well warned that the Reivers came a cropper of the fact that the Borders is not a city its a district so by playing all their games in one town it was never going to work. They should have rotated the games around all of the Border towns as the old South of Scotland and the initial Reivers team did but Telfer wanted the team in one place and that was it. As for Gunners coments about Hawick,Melrose,Gala etc being diddy teams they won more ***les between those three than the rest of the Scottish rugby clubs put together and didnt have to pay people to play for them, also look at the crowds at the Scottish cup final when a team or teams from the Borders is not involved. The answer for the Reivers was simple rotate the places where the team played, involve local players and kids as much as possible.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

You are dead right An Tarbh Gunner should care about the Borders as should all Scottish rugby fans. Gunner you are also correct in as much as most Borderers dont support the team but the SRU where warned about this right at the start and any potential buyer for the franchise(should the SRU change their minds) would be well warned that the Reivers came a cropper of the fact that the Borders is not a city its a district so by playing all their games in one town it was never going to work. They should have rotated the games around all of the Border towns as the old South of Scotland and the initial Reivers team did but Telfer wanted the team in one place and that was it. As for Gunners coments about Hawick,Melrose,Gala etc being diddy teams they won more ***les between those three than the rest of the Scottish rugby clubs put together and didnt have to pay people to play for them, also look at the crowds at the Scottish cup final when a team or teams from the Borders is not involved. The answer for the Reivers was simple rotate the places where the team played, involve local players and kids as much as possible.
[/b]

The Border teams have achieved nothing in recent years, rather it has been teams like Currie, Hawks and Watsons who have been achieving the most things, so I am quite right to say that the Borders sides (most of which play outside Premier 1 and those who do are struggling to stay in it) are small teams doing nothing. All they have are decent youth sides (who have also fallen away this year) which seem to dissapear by the time they get to senior rugby.

Anyway, pro rugby will not work in the Borders! The fans down there are simply not interested in it, look at the numbers of people going to the games. I am bothered by the fact that there will only be 2 pro sides next year, but pro rugby was never going to work down there. I've said before that there is plenty oppurtunity for a team up north. A team playing at Pittodrie or the Caledonian Stadium would be good for the SRU as I think that rugby is growing up there (as shown by sell out crowds when Scotland have played up at Pittodrie or McDirmid Park), so there would probably be high attendances and I think that there would be a few investors interested in it up there as well.
I think the majority of you cannot see my point. I honestly don't care about the Border Reivers being closed, but I do care that it is a Scottish pro team being closed. I think that moving them up North would have been a better choice, allowing for the 3 pro teams to remain, get more people interested in game and ultimatley keep more players under SRU controll instead of sending them down south.

 

[Prestwick]

Rugby CAN work in Aberdeen. You just have to make sure that its a private and dynamic concern instead of a state run co-opertive monstrosity like Glasgow Warriors and how Edinburgh used to be run.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Pro-rugby will only work up here if all the teams are privatised. Edinburgh have shown the way forward, attendances are up, their trying to sign world class players. Even small things like the website, online marketing etc etc. It's just far more professional and organised and it get's people interested.

 

[An Tarbh]

The website may look more impressive but attendances in the league are down on last year and there was only a minimal increase in the Heineken Cup which was more down to the fact that Leinster brought so many supporters to that game. It's obviously not working that well.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Attendences have fallen away because of the autumn test and 6 nations periods, and the fixture list is less than ideal. 3 home games after Christmas, of course it's hard to get people to come and watch.


While there were alot of Leinster fans at that Heineken Cup game I think your over estimating the size of that support. I was at the game, as I have been at every game this year, and there was definatley a larger number of Edinburgh fans.
If we can get some continuity on the park, the numbers will increase. That continuity comes from having a team that doesn't loose so many key players during the internationals (I mean our entire backline was missing in the autumn!) and Howells is trying to sign foreign players so keep us going through this period. The fact that players like Luke McAllister and Mauger have considered Edinburgh seriously is also an indication that privatisation has worked.

So, to say that it hasn't worked that well is balls really, given that the reason for poor attendences (players leaving for international games leaving a scratch/youth side with club rugby players) is actually because the SRU still have a significant control in Edinburgh through holding the players' contracts.

 

[D DAN]

Attendences have fallen away because of the autumn test and 6 nations periods, and the fixture list is less than ideal. 3 home games after Christmas, of course it's hard to get people to come and watch.


While there were alot of Leinster fans at that Heineken Cup game I think your over estimating the size of that support. I was at the game, as I have been at every game this year, and there was definatley a larger number of Edinburgh fans.
If we can get some continuity on the park, the numbers will increase. That continuity comes from having a team that doesn't loose so many key players during the internationals (I mean our entire backline was missing in the autumn!) and Howells is trying to sign foreign players so keep us going through this period. The fact that players like Luke McAllister and Mauger have considered Edinburgh seriously is also an indication that privatisation has worked.

So, to say that it hasn't worked that well is balls really, given that the reason for poor attendences (players leaving for international games leaving a scratch/youth side with club rugby players) is actually because the SRU still have a significant control in Edinburgh through holding the players' contracts.
[/b]

Gunner your posts make you look more and more foolish, the Edinburgh club sides are only doing well at club level because of the talent they buy in at lot of which come from Borders teams. As soon as the pro teams take their players they are almost religated. Rugby is still the main sport in the Borders but as i explained in my last post we are not a bunch of sheep who will blindly go along with whatever the SRU decide is best for us. You seem to have ignored my coments on the Scottish cup final crowds not involving Border teams which have been abismal - so much for Glasgow and Edinburgh loving their rugby they are still a long long long way behind football in these areas. Grow up and see the big picture!

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Yes, football is still bigger in Glasgow and Edinburgh but the fact that there was such low attendences for the Border Reivers show that the Borderers don't exactly care much for the modern game anyway.

You alligations that the Edinburgh clubs only do well cause they buy up Border players is complete nonsense. I'm at Currie, and the Premier 1 Champions are from the central belt, Ireland or the Southern hemisphere. Yes, alot of players do go to the city teams, because they don't stay in the Borders (for whatever reasons, perhaps mostly because there are no Unis down there) but it's not at all like the championship winning sides are based on a core of former Borderers. As for attendences at cup finals, I couldn't really comment as I was only at last years one - though we did bring a very large number of supporters - but yeah, your probably right there. Football is bigger in the city, but rugby is rising in popularity given the success of Edinburgh clubs in recent years. Again, using Currie as an example, there are over 1000 kids playing at the club. I don't think any Borders side has that figure do you? I'm not saying that the Boderers are not contributing to the national game, they are. But not as much as city teams have been in recent years, and whether or not you want to admit it the Border clubs are no longer a massive force in Scottish rugby, it's the newer less traditional clubs like Currie and Ayr who are becomming the teams to beat.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Yes, football is still bigger in Glasgow and Edinburgh but the fact that there was such low attendences for the Border Reivers show that the Borderers don't exactly care much for the modern game anyway.

[/b]

Could that just be that the people there stuck with their own clubs instead of embracing the professional franchise?

 

[Prestwick]

Yes but why did they stick with their own clubs rather than hit the franchise? I think what Gunner meant by "not interested in Borders" was exactly that they preferred to stay within their own little world which straddles betwixt Northumberland and somewhere south of Edinburgh.

Maybe our fellow friends in the Communist (Rugby) Internationale over in Wales, Ireland and the Southern Hemisphere would be able to give us an insight into how well fans of traditional clubs have taken up the new franchises in the Magners League and the Super 14?

I mean, are their alleigances like traditional club first, major Super 14 Franchise second? Was there initial hostility to new franchises being foisted on them by some Rugby Union board hundreds of miles away?

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Well in the case of NZ the Super 14 teams aren't in direct competition with their traditional NPC teams 'cause they play at different times.

 

[Prestwick]

Well, still though, there should still be a preference. One must surely prefer either one or the other, whether they play at the same time or at different times.

 

[An Tarbh]

Attendences have fallen away because of the autumn test and 6 nations periods, and the fixture list is less than ideal. 3 home games after Christmas, of course it's hard to get people to come and watch.


While there were alot of Leinster fans at that Heineken Cup game I think your over estimating the size of that support. I was at the game, as I have been at every game this year, and there was definatley a larger number of Edinburgh fans.
If we can get some continuity on the park, the numbers will increase. That continuity comes from having a team that doesn't loose so many key players during the internationals (I mean our entire backline was missing in the autumn!) and Howells is trying to sign foreign players so keep us going through this period. The fact that players like Luke McAllister and Mauger have considered Edinburgh seriously is also an indication that privatisation has worked.

So, to say that it hasn't worked that well is balls really, given that the reason for poor attendences (players leaving for international games leaving a scratch/youth side with club rugby players) is actually because the SRU still have a significant control in Edinburgh through holding the players' contracts.
[/b]

Well there were 2000 fans from Leinster at that game out of 5500, so quite significant.

I don't think it is balls, for a professional team in a rugby country in a capital city to be getting less than 4000 average for their Heineken Cup games in a venue of 67500, when only injuries affect the lineup, is truly pathetic. International games have only affected most team twice regarding home games. The Ospreys, Leinster and Ulster have proven that they can perform with scratch teams, Edinburgh have notched up plenty of big wins in the league with the scratch side, not so much this season but definitely in the last few years.

Yes but why did they stick with their own clubs rather than hit the franchise? I think what Gunner meant by "not interested in Borders" was exactly that they preferred to stay within their own little world which straddles betwixt Northumberland and somewhere south of Edinburgh.

Maybe our fellow friends in the Communist (Rugby) Internationale over in Wales, Ireland and the Southern Hemisphere would be able to give us an insight into how well fans of traditional clubs have taken up the new franchises in the Magners League and the Super 14?

I mean, are their alleigances like traditional club first, major Super 14 Franchise second? Was there initial hostility to new franchises being foisted on them by some Rugby Union board hundreds of miles away?
[/b]

Well we've had our provincial sides since the 19th century and for us to have competitive sides professionally it was the obvious route to take instead of going with the AIL teams.

 

[D DAN]

Yes, football is still bigger in Glasgow and Edinburgh but the fact that there was such low attendences for the Border Reivers show that the Borderers don't exactly care much for the modern game anyway.

You alligations that the Edinburgh clubs only do well cause they buy up Border players is complete nonsense. I'm at Currie, and the Premier 1 Champions are from the central belt, Ireland or the Southern hemisphere. Yes, alot of players do go to the city teams, because they don't stay in the Borders (for whatever reasons, perhaps mostly because there are no Unis down there) but it's not at all like the championship winning sides are based on a core of former Borderers. As for attendences at cup finals, I couldn't really comment as I was only at last years one - though we did bring a very large number of supporters - but yeah, your probably right there. Football is bigger in the city, but rugby is rising in popularity given the success of Edinburgh clubs in recent years. Again, using Currie as an example, there are over 1000 kids playing at the club. I don't think any Borders side has that figure do you? I'm not saying that the Boderers are not contributing to the national game, they are. But not as much as city teams have been in recent years, and whether or not you want to admit it the Border clubs are no longer a massive force in Scottish rugby, it's the newer less traditional clubs like Currie and Ayr who are becomming the teams to beat.
[/b]

You simply dont read the posts do you? I never said that the Edinburgh teams do well because of Borders players all i pointed out is that there are a lot of them playing there and usually for financial reasons. As for your boast about the amount of kids playing at Curry if you have 1000 which i dont believe for a second where do they all go to watch their rugby because they certainly are not going to see the gunners or yourselves! I have been at your ground watching games right through the age groups and your support is small to say the least (maybee that was different this year because you actually won something) Before you ask why i was not at any of my teams games at your ground this year its quite simple i have found that along with one or two other teams your support is not adverse to fowl language and i wont subject my childern to that just to watch my team play. Please read my 1st post again and start again.

 

[edinburgh_gunner]

Well according to the figures in the local press there are 1000+ kids involved in the youth setup. The problem is, their interested in rugby but their parents aren't cause Currie (that's how you spell it) isn't based in a really rugby area, the majority of people would rather go watch Hearts than watch their clubs, but this has increased since the cup final last year and the successful league campaign this year. In addition, the cost of going to the game can be pretty hefty if your not a member, the kids get in free but it's about £8 for an adult, which is alot for club rugby. The fact that you've admitted that you've not been to Malleny Park this year takes away any abillity you have to comment on the attendences. Apart from when it's been chucking it down Malleny has been mostly full this year

As for the foul language, well that's common. It happens at every sports ground.

Edinburgh club sides are only doing well at club level because of the talent they buy in at lot of which come from Borders teams[/b]

I never said that the Edinburgh teams do well because of Borders players all i pointed out is that there are a lot of them playing there and usually for financial reasons[/b]

Now either you've not expressed your point clear enough, or your contradicting yourself.




Look, I'm not interested in arguing about which sides have been more successfull in recent years. I think I'm right, you think you're right. Call it there.



Yes, your right that the Borders was never going to work playing at Netherdale. But that's cause it's too big an area with a scattered population so one pro outfit for the entire region would never work. The Borders should never have been given a pro-side though, as I've argued already it should have been based in Aberdeen given that Aberdeen has more people living in a small area and that would probably get many folk turning up.



I see though the protest at the Embra game is off, and that McKie has opened the door to saving the Reivers if there is a suitbale finance in place. Question that comes to me though, is where was all this support when they weren't under threat?

 

[SmokeyMonkey]

It seems like they've disbanded already, 26-6 (and bonus point) to the Scarlets after 30 mins!