Australia apology to Aborigines

[melon]

Settle petal's. (More referring to shotve than anything)...maybe this thread should be locked? Nothing constructive ciming of this now i dont think...?

 

[sambãd5]

right there melon, started off by trying to give peace a chance, but i guess this forum isnt ready for racial topics.

 

[melon]

Well i don't think so. When someone chimes in who has no idea whatsoever and continues to derail the topic, its kind of hard to keep the direction of disucussion/debate correct.

 

[Prestwick]

Well i don't think so. When someone chimes in who has no idea whatsoever and continues to derail the topic, its kind of hard to keep the direction of disucussion/debate correct.[/b]

Well, it is just a matter then of neg-repping those who continue to de-rail the topic and, if they continue, reporting them to the mod so that they can be excluded from the conversation if they refuse to get with the program.

 

[Maccaweeny]

The new ALP campaign for spreading the love.

Lighten up guys.

 

[ak47]

everyones going on about how it wont solve anything

well your probably right

but you missing the point its what they wanted - they wanted an apology, they wanted to hear sorry in the apology

whether or not it solves anything - is not the point

now u can blast around saying, well will they bend over at any request all you want

but for years they wanted sorry, they even had a sorry day created.

but for once in decades a govt has welcomed the request

a step in the right direction it is - if it achieves nothing so be it....but that 1 less issue to deal with now...sorry has been done, moving forward we go

 

[mj44]

It won't change a thing, the Australian majority will continue to be racist and look down on the Aboriginies as scum and the Aboriginies, because of the lack of any opportunity will continue to destroy thier society...besides the ones that start playing AFL though... [/b]

So your experiences speak for everyone? A lot of people might view rural aboriginal communities that way (although not as extreme as you state) but most aboriginals live in the major cities. I'm sure they experience more racism than other cultures of the community but it's just wrong to state that the white majority views aboriginals the way you state. It could just be the city or town you live in but I would guess your perspective is just flawed.

As for the apology, it should be the government apologising on behalf of the offending governments, not apologising on helaf of the Australian public.

 

[BLR]

So your experiences speak for everyone? A lot of people might view rural aboriginal communities that way (although not as extreme as you state) but most aboriginals live in the major cities. I'm sure they experience more racism than other cultures of the community but it's just wrong to state that the white majority views aboriginals the way you state. It could just be the city or town you live in but I would guess your perspective is just flawed.

As for the apology, it should be the government apologising on behalf of the offending governments, not apologising on helaf of the Australian public.
[/b]

1st boldened point: I said the majority not everyone.
2nd boldened point: How is it wrong if that is what happens? Is it any coincidence people fear the Aboriginies despite never even talked to one, is it a coincidence that alot of people were against the apology despite it being a token gesture. The only people who would NOT bear some form of racism towards Aboriginals would be learned people and social rights activists. It's a part of Australian society despite what you tend to think.
3rd boldened point:That's what the apology was....maybe the controversey is less about the apology and about the peoples disdain for Aboriginals?

Are you an Australian that out of touch that you can't see the problem or just viewing from the outside?

EDIT: Rural Aboriginals are viewed in a better light in most cases, usually because people say that they are less corrupted by city life.

 

[Maccaweeny]

BLR, most professionally designed polls and surveys conducted amongst Australian polities have established that the majority of Australians support a treaty with Indigenous communities, and the overwhelming majority supports a formal apology from Parliament.

While I'm sure you're exceptionally well informed on the topic, the collective publications originating from those who actually specialise in assessing public opinion would tend to lend more weight than your individual opinion.



Edit: If you wish, I can track down a great deal of the publications, they're compiled in the UTS library, I can probably get a few on the net as well.

 

[BLR]

I don't think you will find many people to honestly admit they are prejudiced towards aboriginals to polling companies...'publications' mean naught when it comes to things such as racism...it's when you are relaxed with a person and a certain topic comes up, if they have had a few drinks thier inhibitions drop and you hear thier true view on the subject...it depends where you live though, we have a fairly high concentration in WA so it is largely on our doorstep on a daily basis. And only 2 out of 5 West Australians said they supported the apology.(out of no doubt a pool of 300 odd people)

How else would Howard last as long as he did with his views on the Aborginals if he was not an agent of his people?

How many Aboriginals do you see with important business jobs? Why is it that in the outback white schools get teachers while larger Aboriginal school can only get a part time teacher for far too many students? It doesn't stem entirely from the government, we facilitate thier actions...

 

[sanzar]

everyones going on about how it wont solve anything

well your probably right

but you missing the point its what they wanted - they wanted an apology, they wanted to hear sorry in the apology

whether or not it solves anything - is not the point

now u can blast around saying, well will they bend over at any request all you want

but for years they wanted sorry, they even had a sorry day created.

but for once in decades a govt has welcomed the request

a step in the right direction it is - if it achieves nothing so be it....but that 1 less issue to deal with now...sorry has been done, moving forward we go

[/b]

Hit the nail bang on the head their mate! So many people here have just completely missed the point here... this is not a matter of "saying sorry will solve all the problems for the aboriginal people" and never was. The fact of the matter is that the people affected by the stolen generations an apology, but were refused one for 11 straight years. No, it won't end Australia's racial problems, no it won't undo the harm done, but for the aboriginal people, and in particular the stolen generations, a formal apology from the Australian government was incredibly important symbolically. </span></span>

 

[Maccaweeny]

BLR, I don't agree with your opinion that the majority of Australians are prejudiced against Aboriginals. I understand that surveys and polls are hit-and-miss at best, and that personal opinions are subject to the context in which they are illicited. Yet I feel there is at least more viable evidence establishing that the majority of Australians advocate reconciliation and equal-citizenship than vice-versa. Nonetheless, it's a pretty subjective topic, and you wouldn't hold to your opinion unless you had good reasons for doing so; no point in debating it.

Otherwise, I definitely agree that Aboriginal heritage is a massive handicap as far as employment is concerned, definitely a valid point. It would be good if the Federal Government could begin to facilitate avenues for establishing sustainable employment (rather than **** paid, part time programs that are organised through welfare schemes) for Aboriginal communities in urban areas.

 

[danny]

The mere fact that this appology has brought the lost generation back to the worlds news and raised awareness of this terrible crime is positive and should be applauded. Its the actions that can arise from these words that will be keenly anticipated by the Aborigines.

 

[shtove]

Hit the nail bang on the head their mate! So many people here have just completely missed the point here... this is not a matter of "saying sorry will solve all the problems for the aboriginal people" and never was. The fact of the matter is that the people affected by the stolen generations an apology, but were refused one for 11 straight years. No, it won't end Australia's racial problems, no it won't undo the harm done, but for the aboriginal people, and in particular the stolen generations, a formal apology from the Australian government was incredibly important symbolically. </span></span>

[/b]

You're missing the point - an apology without redress is NOT an apology. Full stop. An apology has to be made with an offer of restoring the injured party to the position they were in beforehand. Otherwise, it's just "saying sorry" as a piece of political window dressing.

You think I'm cynical? What's cynical is raining welfare benefits down on people and then fobbing them off with this piece of nonsense. Justice will only be done if they're given money and land, and then told that the welfare choo-choo will no longer leave the station.

I don't know what I'm talking about? What's so unique about the Australian experience?

 

[ak47]

You're missing the point - an apology without redress is NOT an apology. Full stop. An apology has to be made with an offer of restoring the injured party to the position they were in beforehand. Otherwise, it's just "saying sorry" as a piece of political window dressing.
I don't know what I'm talking about? What's so unique about the Australian experience?
[/b]

The fact that they wanted the govt to say 'sorry'

Whether or not your definition of an apology matters

Thats what is unique you idiot

There will be a few compo claims come out of it......but the whole majority of the issue just saying 'sorry' is what was requested, and has been accepted with open arms by all, with some compo claims ****ling thru from the minority

 

[Maccaweeny]

. </span></span>
You're missing the point - an apology without redress is NOT an apology. Full stop. An apology has to be made with an offer of restoring the injured party to the position they were in beforehand. Otherwise, it's just "saying sorry" as a piece of political window dressing.

You think I'm cynical? What's cynical is raining welfare benefits down on people and then fobbing them off with this piece of nonsense. Justice will only be done if they're given money and land, and then told that the welfare choo-choo will no longer leave the station.

I don't know what I'm talking about? What's so unique about the Australian experience?
[/b]

"Justice will only be done if they're given money and land"- No, for there to be means for the awarding of damages, there must be a breach of conduct on the part of the federal government. Simply put, there wasn't, the common law cannot be retroactive. The act of separating Aboriginal children from their parents was legal at the time of incidence, pursuant to statutes that were then enacted by the legislature. Compensating parties for actions that were lawfully undertaken by a federal government would be highly unethical.

Parties that have been awarded compensation have only done so through alleging that the federal/ state govt's did not fulfill the duty of care stipulated by the legislature. In the case of Trevorrow v State of South Australia, SASC 369; the government was found to be in breach of the the Maintenance Act 1926-1937 (SA), the Aborigines Act 1934-1939 (SA), the Social Welfare Act 1926-1965 (SA), the Aboriginal Affairs Act 1962 (SA) and the Community Welfare Act 1972 (SA).

When it comes down to it though, unless Indigenous groups can prove that the state was acting unlawfully, how can they be awarded damages? The law cannot be retroactive, we can't turn back and award damages for something that was conducted lawfully under the then pursuant statute. The wrongs committed were legal at the time of incidence. Yet, moving away from questions of legality, was it right? Of course not, though as C.J Mason has said again and again, the rule of law is not invalidated by questions of morality, of right and wrong, of questions of an all encompassing 'natural law'. Thus the government finds itself in a predicament where they are held responsible for something that is seen as morally reprehensible, yet was legal when it occurred. The former, being a question of ethics, is seen to necessitate an apology, the latter; a question of legality, would involve the awarding of damages/compensation. The govt. Is taking the standpoint that the policy was legal (understandably), no compensation will be given, yet it was wrong, so an apology is seen as fair.

An apology is not measured by the cheque it comes with.

 

[ak47]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>), an expression of sympathy for another's suffering[/list]TSHOVEIT up your ass

No compo or payback required

 

[C A Iversen]

Gee it'd be great if anyone outside of Aussie was allowed to comment, but we can't possibly understand.

Shtove, you have to realise that sooner or later. Nothing is remotely comprehendable for anyone from outside of Australia. You have no right to comment, as the situation there is so thoroughly different to any event in human history that you may as well solve mysteries of the cosmos.

Regarding this subject Australians communicate on a higher level of understanding of all of the issues involved to a degree that you should apologise for thinking you might have a infinitesimal molecule of ability to grasp it.

I learned my lesson.

Rant over. Sorry for posting in this thread and sorry for anything I may have said in the past on this subject. Finally, sorry for thinking of this post.

 

[ak47]

all good CA - everyones allowed to post

dont say sorry though - Shtove will think some form of payback/compo is warranted

Shtove
"Justice will only be done if they're given money and land"

the only thing remotely correct he has said - but given it wasnt against the current law at the time, how can this be done

But they arent after justice - just an apology, acknowledgment of wrong doings

 

[BLR]

Gee it'd be great if anyone outside of Aussie was allowed to comment, but we can't possibly understand.

Shtove, you have to realise that sooner or later. Nothing is remotely comprehendable for anyone from outside of Australia. You have no right to comment, as the situation there is so thoroughly different to any event in human history that you may as well solve mysteries of the cosmos.

Regarding this subject Australians communicate on a higher level of understanding of all of the issues involved to a degree that you should apologise for thinking you might have a infinitesimal molecule of ability to grasp it.
[/b]

Finally someone gets it!